How the War started?

Glocknal · Post by **Glocknal** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 1:15 pm

Playing a M'chek soldier I constantly run up against people saying that M'chek is a bunch of warmongers, how they invaded Tnanshi for no reason blah, blah...What ever the truth of how the war actually started shouldnt there be a propraganda story for each army to explain and justify thier position in the War. Im referring to sepecific instances like:

A broken treaty,

A border conflict the got out of hand,

an Assassination..

Things like that my character can point to to say its the other nations fault why there is a war. Having a explaination for these kinds of questions, whether they are accurate to actual events or not would make playing a War character a lot eaiser.

Glok

Post by **Nighthawk4** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 1:25 pm

As I understand the War, the Humans waste their resources and breed like rabbits.

The Elves live in co-operation with Nature and are more responsible about their numbers.

Also, as Humans have shorter lives than Elves, this also causes faster growth in numbers.

As the Humans have used up their resources and are over-crowded, they have tried to take over some of the Elven lands.

This has led to the War.

Ashlynn · Post by **Ashlynn** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 1:42 pm

Maybe that's part of the truth behind it, but Gloknal's not looking for the true series of events behind the war.

What does M'Chek say started the war? Was there something akin to the bombing of Pearl Harbor that M'Chek points to and says, "There. That was the beginning?"

Propaganda, not pure fact.

Reinstag · Post by **Reinstag** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 1:47 pm

I remember reading someplace that human settlers within T'Nanshi were forced off their land when the elves saw the type of farming techniques the humans used.

It may not be true, but it certainly makes the humans have/feel a little justification in things.

KinX · Post by **KinX** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 2:19 pm

maybe the human leaders in the government found evidence of weapons of mass detruction in T'Nanshi lands.

Dirk Cutlass · Post by **Dirk Cutlass** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 2:23 pm

KinX wrote:maybe the human leaders in the government found evidence of weapons of mass detruction in T'Nanshi lands.

What you mean they found Kharak in T'Nanshi

Glocknal · Post by **Glocknal** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 2:25 pm

Nighthawk4 wrote:As I understand the War, the Humans waste their resources and breed like rabbits.

The Elves live in co-operation with Nature and are more responsible about their numbers.

Also, as Humans have shorter lives than Elves, this also causes faster growth in numbers.

As the Humans have used up their resources and are over-crowded, they have tried to take over some of the Elven lands.

This has led to the War.

Thats a good description of what Tnanshi might say in thier propaganda..

Im sure, as with everything in Avlis the truth falls somewhere in the grey areas..Even if M'chek are the aggressors it doesnt mean that they were not justified in attacking Tnanshi, even if its from thier own biased point of view.

What im looking for is a biased, propangada message from each side on how the war started. Im sure the truth will be something that will have to be discovered IC.

Glocknal · Post by **Glocknal** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 2:26 pm

Dirk Cutlass wrote:
KinX wrote:maybe the human leaders in the government found evidence of weapons of mass detruction in T'Nanshi lands.
What you mean they found Kharak in T'Nanshi

Yeah..they could smell his dirty ass all they way from Mikona..

Melakin Skywieder · Post by **Melakin Skywieder** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 2:35 pm

So another question that many have raised IC is will the war ever end. Since, in human terms it has been raging for 50+ years it would certainly seem that the answer would be no. I am sure there are a number of PC who would be upset that they couldnt head out to the warzone for some Hack and Slash exercise. Is it a planned thing to allow it to continue or could ther be a truce with the correct IC efforts?

KinX · Post by **KinX** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 2:36 pm

Glocknal wrote: Yeah..they could smell his dirty ass all they way from Mikona..

looks who's talking. Gloknall's the one who has to keep his helm on in fear of scaring people away with the shit that comes out of his mouth.

Glocknal · Post by **Glocknal** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 2:39 pm

Dammit ya stumpy bastard dont hijack me thread...!

KinX · Post by **KinX** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 2:40 pm

Glocknal wrote:Dammit ya stumpy bastard dont hijack me thread...!

ok ok, i won't hijack it, but you started it...

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 3:43 pm

I remember there being stories of attrocities commited by T'Nanshi soliders some time ago against M'Chek farmers who settled in lands given to them by T'Nanshi to help M'Chek out.

These farmers moved to what is a little north of Brandburg, and at some point the elfs came in and wipped them out or drove them off.

So that would be from the M'Chek side, why the war was started.

I can't say how true this story is, or even if I'm remembering it corectly, but I deffently remember something along those lines being talked about.

j5hale3 · Post by **j5hale3** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 3:46 pm

Humans waste their resources and breed like rabbits.

The Elves live in co-operation with Nature and are more responsible about their numbers.

Also, as Humans have shorter lives than Elves, this also causes faster growth in numbers.

As the Humans have used up their resources and are over-crowded, they have tried to take over some of the Elven lands.

I would like a better understanding also. Both Player wise and character wise. As a player I'd like to know better the "real" reasons for the war and the general condions around the war, As a character I'd like to know what most people assume the war is about.
The above seems like BS to me. I'm gonna have to go through a lot of posts again... and look closely at who posts what.
I have a feeling that the cause of the M'chek problem is due more to climatic change than to "Human Wastefulnes" Any good farmer would use the "best" techinques available to be more productive. The bad farmers would soon die or go out of business.
And this argument about elves being more responsible about their "numbers" is also "cockeyed". Just because they are less "fertile" doesn't mean they are more responsible. It's just they're nature to reproduce less often.
The other main problem of the war is that M'chek has nowhere esle to go. And just seeing all the "unused" land just North of the Blandberg village must drive the M'chek's mad. It would be comparable to having the American Natives stopping the settlers at the Missippi river. The settlers can see all that land over there not being used at all.

Best regards,

Aloro · Post by **Aloro** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 3:50 pm

And just seeing all the "unused" land just North of the Blandberg village must drive the M'chek's mad.

In exactly the same manner, seeing all the "unused" land South (and West, and East) of Blandenberg drives many T'Nanshi loyalists mad.

- Aloro

Praetor · Post by **Praetor** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 4:02 pm

The only reason the land to the south is unused and empty is that it would be too much of a CPU hit to populate it... I'm sure this has been said in many other posts. Pretend there is rampant overpopulation there

Post by **Nighthawk4** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 4:09 pm

Glocknal wrote:
Nighthawk4 wrote:As I understand the War, the Humans waste their resources and breed like rabbits.

The Elves live in co-operation with Nature and are more responsible about their numbers.

Also, as Humans have shorter lives than Elves, this also causes faster growth in numbers.

As the Humans have used up their resources and are over-crowded, they have tried to take over some of the Elven lands.

This has led to the War.
Thats a good description of what Tnanshi might say in thier propaganda..

Im sure, as with everything in Avlis the truth falls somewhere in the grey areas..Even if M'chek are the aggressors it doesnt mean that they were not justified in attacking Tnanshi, even if its from thier own biased point of view.

What im looking for is a biased, propangada message from each side on how the war started. Im sure the truth will be something that will have to be discovered IC.

Elves: The Humans are filthy creatures, despoiling the planet and breeding without any restraint. They attacked us first anyway.

Humans: The Elves are a bunch of goody-goody tree-huggers, who don't deserve the land and resources. We need more space and deserve the land more than they do. They are not exploiting the resources properly.

How is that for Propaganda?

Vroshgrak · Post by **Vroshgrak** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 4:13 pm

my impression of how the war started (correct me if im wrong).

the humans who pride themselves in the fact that rules dont apply to them, so they dont think its ethical to put birth restrictions (maybe limiting to 2 kids per family). And so they just lived in MChek populating, sometimes overpopulating. At this time they were still peaceful with TNanshi and other countries/kingdoms/confederacies. They imported alot of stuff, to sustain their growing populating. The elves realized where this was heading, cut off trading, or at least limited it, restricting food caravans through their lands if they are destined for MChek. The humans saw that they had to work harder to get enough food to feed everyone, and it cost more money to import everything, so they got sick of the elves "exerting superiority over them". So the humans decided to stop the elves from meddling by taking some of their lands, and hopefully farming up there, and also starting trade again. The elves couldnt let the humans arrogance and stupidity win. and thus the 2 nations have been at war for 50 years now.

What I wonder now, is that how can MChek have a war for 50+ years, while losing approx 500 troops a day, and still have an over populationg issue.

thats 365x500x50= 9,125,000 men. Wow talk about over population! hehe

Glocknal · Post by **Glocknal** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 4:15 pm

Nighthawk4 wrote:
Glocknal wrote:
Nighthawk4 wrote:As I understand the War, the Humans waste their resources and breed like rabbits.

The Elves live in co-operation with Nature and are more responsible about their numbers.

Also, as Humans have shorter lives than Elves, this also causes faster growth in numbers.

As the Humans have used up their resources and are over-crowded, they have tried to take over some of the Elven lands.

This has led to the War.
Thats a good description of what Tnanshi might say in thier propaganda..

Im sure, as with everything in Avlis the truth falls somewhere in the grey areas..Even if M'chek are the aggressors it doesnt mean that they were not justified in attacking Tnanshi, even if its from thier own biased point of view.

What im looking for is a biased, propangada message from each side on how the war started. Im sure the truth will be something that will have to be discovered IC.

Elves: The Humans are filthy creatures, despoiling the planet and breeding without any restraint. They attacked us first anyway.

Humans: The Elves are a bunch of goody-goody tree-huggers, who don't deserve the land and resources. We need more space and deserve the land more than they do. They are not exploiting the resources properly.

How is that for Propaganda?

Hell I could of made that up!

Im looking for more specific historical references(with bias mind you) which characters can point to place blame on the other side.

I.e. "everyone know those stinking elves came during Gorethar's feast and slaughtered the people of Bumfek, were gonna make them pay for that atrocity!"

Falkin · Post by **Falkin** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 4:18 pm

Not to derail anyone... but can we please keep the IRL wars out of the IC wars? I'm trying to forget the propoganda done by the US goverment as it is...

marauder · Post by **marauder** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 5:14 pm

Vroshgrak wrote:my impression of how the war started (correct me if im wrong).

the humans who pride themselves in the fact that rules dont apply to them, so they dont think its ethical to put birth restrictions (maybe limiting to 2 kids per family). And so they just lived in MChek populating, sometimes overpopulating. At this time they were still peaceful with TNanshi and other countries/kingdoms/confederacies. They imported alot of stuff, to sustain their growing populating. The elves realized where this was heading, cut off trading, or at least limited it, restricting food caravans through their lands if they are destined for MChek. The humans saw that they had to work harder to get enough food to feed everyone, and it cost more money to import everything, so they got sick of the elves "exerting superiority over them". So the humans decided to stop the elves from meddling by taking some of their lands, and hopefully farming up there, and also starting trade again. The elves couldnt let the humans arrogance and stupidity win. and thus the 2 nations have been at war for 50 years now.

What I wonder now, is that how can MChek have a war for 50+ years, while losing approx 500 troops a day, and still have an over populationg issue. thats 365x500x50= 9,125,000 men. Wow talk about over population! hehe

This seems to be a very elf oriented view. It seems most people feel that the elves are inherently good and the war is due to some human fault. I wonder if the elves way of life is truly the utopia everyone seems to think it is. Perhaps the humans are in the right for once and not trouncing over and destroying everything in sight.

From what I have gathered, the land in M'Check is bad. NOT due to overfarming or human "stupidity", but due to the fact that the land is barren. The land is between a desert and a grassland...how can you farm that? Even the best techniques (note the ones available in Avlis...not here today) cannot help. The elves THINKING (note the THINKING part) they are superior feel they are in the right to judge the humans and force th humans to live by their rules just because they have not grown as fast. Given time the elves are sure to encounter similar situations...they just take too long to expand. The elves (as far as I know) do not practice limiting children or any of that BS. They just reproduce slower.

It is one thing to tell others to limit their family size, and another to have it forced on you by others. The point is it is much easier to think of a plan that you will never have to follow than to think of one you would be willing to follow.

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 5:19 pm

Glocknal wrote:Im looking for more specific historical references(with bias mind you) which characters can point to place blame on the other side.

Hmm a DM posts a specific historical reference, and it just gets ingored???

Glocknal · Post by **Glocknal** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 5:26 pm

Vanor wrote:I remember there being stories of attrocities commited by T'Nanshi soliders some time ago against M'Chek farmers who settled in lands given to them by T'Nanshi to help M'Chek out.

These farmers moved to what is a little north of Brandburg, and at some point the elfs came in and wipped them out or drove them off.

So that would be from the M'Chek side, why the war was started.

I can't say how true this story is, or even if I'm remembering it corectly, but I deffently remember something along those lines being talked about.

This one? I didnt take it as my answer becuase you seemed unsure..But it works fine for me..pleanty of Tnanshi atroticy for me in there..

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 5:36 pm

Glocknal wrote:This one? I didnt take it as my answer becuase you seemed unsure..But it works fine for me..pleanty of Tnanshi atroticy for me in there..

I was unsure of the exact details, but I do know that such things were reported to of happened. The fact that it's a little fuzzy is in a way good, it was a long time ago and there's no real way of knowing for sure what happened.

There is also however, the opinion held by may of the rulers of M'Chek that the elfs are being selfish, and racist. They are withholding land they don't use for no other reason then they wish to see the humans die out as a race.

"They're not using it, we're starving to death, so it's a question of surival for us."

j5hale3 · Post by **j5hale3** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 5:41 pm

Falkin wrote:Not to derail anyone... but can we please keep the IRL wars out of the IC wars? I'm trying to forget the propoganda done by the US goverment as it is...

you know what, these types of responses are starting to get on my nerves. I don't mean to pick on you Falkin because it's not just you, But REAL LIFE is all I have to go on to make these comparisions. AND I think that I cast the thought in a neutral way. I didn't say that the natives were right or the settlers were right. It is an useful way of thinking how the M'cheks might feel when they look at all the unused or (under used) land North of a natural border that's taken as a National border. In an earlier era, who knows what the boundries were.

This earth is the only place that has a human history that we know of so far. So we should look to our history (real or propaganda version) and extrapolate it into Avlis. UNTIL the time a Senior DM makes a ruling.