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Date Translation: RL==>IG

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Date Translation: RL==>IG

PostAuthor: Buddha » Tue Sep 05, 2006 6:50 am

Ok, I'm looking for a rough order of magnitude on translating several RL dates to IG dates. I've seen several discussions on this, and as a result, I'm not clear on exactly what the proper method is to calculate the date. I once used the calculator on the site and got a bit of a surprise when I announced the results. :oops: Since then, I've heard that the change to the rate of time IG has affected that calculator, making it not quite accurate for current dates.

First, here's the date I'd like to translate: April 12, 2004

Next, is there any solid mathematical formula to do the calculations? Or perhaps two, as the rate of time changed IG? If so, I'd be willing to whip something up in Excel that would calculate dates automatically and post it up for others.
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PostAuthor: Simius » Tue Sep 05, 2006 8:45 am

This one still seems to work fine: http://www.avlis.org/portal.php?getpage=calendar

edit: *slaps himself around with a large trout* I should read better before replying
Last edited by Simius on Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostAuthor: Hamlet » Tue Sep 05, 2006 8:49 am

Someone please remind me when exactly but I believe this converter worked up to a particular moment in 2004 (?) when there was a change in the IG / RL hour duration ratio. After that date, the above link gives ~ 10 years discrepancy. :wink:
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PostAuthor: Buddha » Tue Sep 05, 2006 2:08 pm

Hah! Found it here:

http://www.blackdagger.org/viewtopic.ph ... r+calendar

Nob wrote:The site calendar is accurate with regards to the original dates to around early 2004, the disrepency comes from the fact that the calendar is set to take into account that there was a shift in the in game time value from 2 minutes/hour to 4 minutes/hour and the adjustment hasn't really kept up.

As a general rule of thumb any date after June of 2004 should have 10 years subtracted from the value.


"General Rule of Thumb" will work for me, as I don't need exact dates. I don't want SigOwl to lock my thread. :twisted:
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PostAuthor: xenophile » Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:43 pm

Hey Buddha,

I'd been gnawing on the same issue when I was inserting dates onto wiki articles. I summed up the results of this discussion here - Timeline page, Present section.

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PostAuthor: Buddha » Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:45 am

Good writeup, Xeno. I think the answer I'm seeking is that you have to continue to calculate the date based on 2 minutes per hour, not 4. Manny explained it when someone was checking to see how long their character had been gone:

Manuel the Mathematician wrote:Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 2:52 pm

Although the Team changed an hour to 4 minutes in Avlis several months ago, the *date* is still computed as an hour every 2 minutes. Therefore, unless I'm mistaken, the computation would be as follows:

~210 RL days * 24 hours = 5040
5040 RL hours * 60 minutes = 302400
302400 RL minutes / 2 (2 minutes = 1 Avlis hour) = 151200 Avlis hours
151200 / 24 (Avlis hours in a day) = 6300 Avlis days
6300 / 365 (Avlis days a year) = 17.26 Avlis years
17 years & 3 months

Just keep in mind that:

About the Avlis Calendar:
The Avlis Calendar is a convenience for our players in order to record in-game dates and times. It should not be used to determine character age as the Avlis Calendar is not an accurate representation of time passage for a person's age.



I can just work forward from 12 Apr 04, as that should translate correctly. Can someone plug in that date to the calendar calculator and let me know what it spits out? For some reason, while I can now access the forums from work, the calendar is still blocked. :roll:
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PostAuthor: Buddha » Wed Sep 06, 2006 7:35 am

Ok, looking at this, I think I can simplify. In order to use a web-based date calculator, all I really need is Number of RL Days (x) converted to Number of Avlis Days (y).

Here's the original, per Manny's post:
Code: Select all
   x * 24 * 60
   ___________    =   y

     2 * 24


Divide out the factor of 24, divide out a factor of two, and you get:
Code: Select all
   x * 1 * 30
   __________    =   y

     1 * 1


Which is simply x * 30 = y, or Number of RL Days * 30 = Number of Avlis Days. In text terms, for those that don't read algebra simply take the number of RL days times 30 to get the number of Avlis Days.

Get the number of RL Days by putting in 1 Jun 2002 and a RL end date here:

http://www.timeanddate.com/date/duration.html

Then take that number, multiply by 30. Go to the link below, put in January 1, 2050 in the "Enter date to add or subtract from" blocks, and in the "Days" block, enter your result from your first calculation. Click "Calculate New Date!" and voila -- you have the Avlis date.

http://www.timeanddate.com/date/dateadd.html

QED.

Team, did I get that right? Does one RL day actually equal 1 Avlis month?
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PostAuthor: gwydion2 » Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:31 am

Except the whole problem with the calender is that the time scale has been changed from 1:30 to 1:15 and the calender has not been adjusted to compensate.

It runs 2 RL days / Avlis month for the last couple of years.

if you are trying to calculate dates properly, you have to use that factor of 15.
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PostAuthor: Buddha » Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:07 am

But if you read Manny's post above, he says:

Manny wrote:the *date* is still computed as an hour every 2 minutes

My understanding is that the "hour every 4 minutes" was strictly put in to extend duration on magical effects.
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PostAuthor: gwydion2 » Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:32 pm

That's a very old post and it really doesnt make sense. There are a lot of very clear IN GAME effects of that time change.

The sun rises and sets 15 times on Avlis in a RL day. Everyone can see that happen.

The boats that travel between servers, do so at times based on in game clock. So we can't say just ignore the times they show. You can watch the days and months progress at a time scale of 15 to 1.
When the Kuras boat used to leave once a month, that was every 2 days (actually slightly less as the months don't have 30 days).

We've had messages when we log in, telling us what the temperature and season is, based on the month shown by in game clock.

In the face of all evidence, clinging to a 30:1 time scale for dates, purely because "that's the way it was originally" seems absurd.

Up to the team to decide that of course.
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PostAuthor: xenophile » Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:48 pm

I tried calculating known dates using the assumptions above, but with no luck.

I've been using serial date values (in Excel), and assuming a simple conversion constant from real time to Avlis time for each of the two time flows: that on the Avlis calendar calculator, and that since the change.

I'm finding two constants with a 2:1 ratio (to each other), but they aren't the 30 and 15 expected, close to 32 1/3 and 16 1/8, actually. (I can share the actual formulas I used if anyone's interested).

I'm also finding a date of convergence for the two time flows of 6/13/05, not April 2004.

Since I've only played since October '05, I can't verify anything before that first hand.
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PostAuthor: Buddha » Wed Sep 06, 2006 2:04 pm

*sings* Share, share, share the lovely formulas!

And the Apr 2004 date shouldn't be the convergence date. That's just the date that I'm looking to translate. The convergence date in June sounds about right for when it changed.
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PostAuthor: xenophile » Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:10 pm

First things first.

12 April 2004 RL = 19 Oct 2110 Avlis (A.O.D.), using the date calculator

That's at 04:00 GMT - I don't think the calculator adjusts for daylight savings (haven't checked that). Naturally we give or take a few days when time goes so fast, but we can trust the years of backward calculations, and in most cases the month.

Algebra haters read no further!

My formulas - using Excel serial date values. I used GMT for consistency.

General form

Avlis date = ( ( RL date to convert - baseline RL date )
* time flow constant ) + baseline Avlis date

1 June 2002 to 13 Jun 2005 04:00 GMT

Avlis date = ( ( RL date - 37408.17) * 32.6087 ) + 54789.00

The constant is calculated from two reference dates: 1 Jun 02 (37408.17), the date the calendar is intended to start; and 1 Jan 05 (38353.17), a date that I assume to be near the end of the 2 RL minutes/Avlis hour time flow.

13 Jun 2005 04:00 GMT to present

Avlis date = ( ( RL date - 38794.63 ) * 16.2339 ) + 95439.83

The constant is calculated from two arbitrary reference dates, where I happened to mark both RL time and Avlis time. One was back in March, and one was yesterday.
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PostAuthor: gwydion2 » Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:11 pm

I think some inconsistency may be creeping in from the way the NWN in game calender is set up. The thing is, all months have 28 days in the display, making a year 12 x 28 = 336 days in a NWN year.

So with a 15 to 1 time scale, a RL day is 15 Avlis days

A RL year though = 15 x 365 / 336 = 16.3 Avlis years.
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PostAuthor: Buddha » Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:58 am

Gwyd,

I just slapped your formulas into Excel to give them a try. According to you, the site calculator returns 12 Apr 04 = 19 Oct 2110. Using your formulas, (but only with days, not broken down the whole way to hours), I came up with this:

Code: Select all
1 June 2002 to 12 June 2005         
D       M        Y   
12      4        2004     =     October 14, 2110


Is not using hours going to throw me off by more than a month? If One RL Hour = 15 IG hours, I suppose I could be off by 15 days, but I'm just looking to be able to say "Fall of 2110, Spring of 2129, etc."

Here's the formula I'm using, where D5 is the RL serial date:
=((D5-37408.17)*32.6087)+54789

14 Oct vs. 19 Oct is no big deal to me. I just want to make sure the margin of error doesn't expand to more than a month.
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PostAuthor: gwydion2 » Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:38 pm

Actually, those are Xenophiles formulae. It looks pretty good, but I dont understand where he got his baseline dates for the changeover from 30 to 1 to 15 to 1 time scale.
I know the conversion was done well before june 05.
I assume there was some general confusion about the date to use for a while after changeover.

I actually make the constant 32.589286 based on the NWN 28 day month I explained, but otherwise the formula looks right for pre time changeover.
It would be 16.294643 for later dates.
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PostAuthor: Buddha » Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:01 pm

gwydion2 wrote:Actually, those are Xenophiles formulae.

*smacks self*

Sorry, Xeno. That's what I get for posting before having enough coffee. And thanks, gwydion, for the clarification. I'll correct my product and save it as a web page. If babies cooperate, I'll hang it up on the web tonight.

Xeno, any comments on the baseline date for the changeover?
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PostAuthor: xenophile » Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:19 pm

Gwydion, that was exactly the information we needed. Thanks for that.

Buddha, my "convergence date" was just the date when the two formulas converged on paper. But since I've only played under the new time rate, I have no notes to test it against reality. Looking forward to seeing your conversion web page.
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PostAuthor: gwydion2 » Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:35 pm

I've been playing with the old date calculator. Looks like it was properly set up to take into account the 28 day month. So you can't get any date beyond the 28th day of any month, whatever RL date you put in. Any new version we create, will have to do the same, so a simple multiplication of RL date by our conversion factor will not be correct, though it will be roughly in the right area.

To get it right, we have to break it down a little.
First, the Baseline date has been defined in Ask The Team as June 1 2004
This translates as April 7th 2115 Avlis time.

Dates before that can be translated using the existing calculator.
(actually I'm pretty sure the changeover was a few months earlier, but I couldn't find when, so lets just accept the ruling).

What you can do in excel, is subtract June 1 2004 from any later date entered. Get the answer in number rather than date format, and that gives you the number of RL days between the dates.

multiply the days x 15 to give avlis days. D1

Then use INT (D1 / 336) to give avlis years AY

(AY - (D1 / 336)) * 12 = Avlis months etc.

You add all these numbers to april 7th 2116 for a final date

I can do this easily enough in excel I think, so if either of you want me to send you a copy just PM me your email.
I can work it to include the old date calculator as well.

If Buddha can incorporate this into a good looking format, we can get the team to replace that old outdated calculator.

Damn we are real geeks to care about this :lol:
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PostAuthor: gwydion2 » Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:18 pm

Okay, I've got my Excel sheet running after a little tweaking and it agrees with the existing online calculator for dates prior to June 1 2004.

After that it diverges from the calculator using the new 15 to 1 timescale.
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PostAuthor: Buddha » Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:12 pm

Well, babies didn't cooperate, so I made no progress on this. :cry:

I did however discover that the time change probably happened around 20 Mar 04 -- at least that's when the first post bitching about it was posted. :D See the 9th post down by Aloro for confirmation. I've got an idea that should let me confirm the date, but it needs to wait until tomorrow. Off to sleep now.
Last edited by Buddha on Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostAuthor: gwydion2 » Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:43 pm

Buddha wrote:I did however discover that the time change probably happened around 20 Mar 04


That sounds about right. The spreadsheet I emailed you uses 1 june 04 at the moment, but thats easy to change by tweaking a couple of numbers in the formulae.
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PostAuthor: gwydion2 » Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:39 pm

One final bit of tweaking needs to be done. That's to synchronise the date on the spreadsheet to the IG month and time.
The current spreadsheet has time running at the correct rate, but we don't want it continuously 3 months out of sync with the timer (for instance).

This is just a matter of fine tuning the start day, for the changeover to 15:1 time.
With Avlis currently running 22.4 RL days to an Avlis year, thats how far apart suitable reference days are.
I'll check the IG date this evening and work back to assign a changeover day close to 20 mar 04 in the formula.
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PostAuthor: Buddha » Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:55 pm

Check your email, gwyd.

For those interested, it looks like xenophile was right on the convergence of the two timelines. Basically (without discussing formulae or function), I made one timeline that ran forward from 1 Jun 2002 based on 1 RL min = 2 IG hours, and one timeline that ran backwards from 11 Sep 2006 based on 1 RL min = 4 IG hours. They meet (cross) at almost exactly 12 Jun 2005.

So while the servers may have changed time somewhere in early 2004, the current progression of time doesn't seem to support that. I've cleaned up my spreadsheet, and it seems to be accurate to withing a few hours in most places, with variances of up to a day. I'll see if I screwed anything up, then put it up on the web tonight.
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