Oriental type characters

Fifty · Post by **Fifty** » Sat Jul 05, 2003 3:22 pm

Following on from a discussion in the Random Discussions forum there seems to be some interest in oriental characters - primarily samurais. I know that there is already one samurai-based character wandering around out there.

I was wondering whether there is any oriental land in the game which we could justify coming from? The thread indicated that somewhere in the background of the PNP campaign there is some mention of an orient, but I have no details and don't want to search the entire PNP list right now. (Although I am reading it slowly)

Perhaps there could be some rationale why a few oriental characters might be leaving there homeland and coming to Mikona? A final battle for control of the country leaving many samurai and other types lordless perhaps? (direct historical parallel being the battle of Sekigahara)

Anyway... what are people's thoughts? Orleron especially, obviously.

Other than that maybe oriental characters coudl come over from Mythos, although I know nothing about Mythos at all.

Imnadune · Post by **Imnadune** » Sat Jul 05, 2003 4:15 pm

Fifty wrote:Following on from a discussion in the Random Discussions forum there seems to be some interest in oriental characters - primarily samurais. I know that there is already one samurai-based character wandering around out there.

I was wondering whether there is any oriental land in the game which we could justify coming from? The thread indicated that somewhere in the background of the PNP campaign there is some mention of an orient, but I have no details and don't want to search the entire PNP list right now. (Although I am reading it slowly)

Perhaps there could be some rationale why a few oriental characters might be leaving there homeland and coming to Mikona? A final battle for control of the country leaving many samurai and other types lordless perhaps? (direct historical parallel being the battle of Sekigahara)

Anyway... what are people's thoughts? Orleron especially, obviously.

Other than that maybe oriental characters coudl come over from Mythos, although I know nothing about Mythos at all.

You dont' have to be oriental to be a samaurai (aren't samarai's Japanese? and japan is not in the orient as far as I know: http://www.grazian-archive.com/governin ... Orient.gif ). You could be plain human or something or maybe the majority of the samaurais are some other race who have passed the art onto humans who have dedicated their lives to the code of the samaurai. Lot's of story and RP possibilities here.

Jordicus · Post by **Jordicus** » Sat Jul 05, 2003 4:18 pm

uhm.. i don't know where you got that map, but Japan is definitely in the Orient.

Imnadune · Post by **Imnadune** » Sat Jul 05, 2003 4:19 pm

k, I stand corrected.

Fifty · Post by **Fifty** » Sun Jul 06, 2003 2:39 am

Yeah, not such a great map.

Of course it is possible to be a non-Japanese samurai. But it is extremely rare. For example, the Englishman Will Adams was made Hatamoto (a kind of personal retainer) by Tokugawa Ieyasu, but he was probably the only European this ever happened to. As for whether any Koreans or Chinese ever became recognized as Samurai I am not sure, but if they did then it would have been by living in Japan and becoming utterly Japanified.

Of course, that doesn't have to be the same in Avlis, if an Orient is even allowed. It might be that they went for inclusion rather than isolation, but who knows?

Post by **Orleron** » Sun Jul 06, 2003 3:01 am

Khanjar Kuro is a small oriental continent on Avlis that is very new and not well developed yet. It was explored a bit in the pen and paper campaign notes, and you can read about it. I think it's Campaign 2, Chapters 2 thru 6. That's ALL of the information on Avlis' orient so far, so you would probably be better off making an oriental character be a Mythos native.

One day, when the entire server bank of the main Avlis continent is done, and if they have developed good oriental stuff for NWN, we'll make Khanjar Kuro. But that's probably years away, atm.

TheBluDragon · Post by **TheBluDragon** » Fri Jul 11, 2003 4:25 am

Fifty wrote: Perhaps there could be some rationale why a few oriental characters might be leaving there homeland and coming to Mikona? A final battle for control of the country leaving many samurai and other types lordless perhaps? (direct historical parallel being the battle of Sekigahara)

Actually a lordless Samurai is no longer a samurai, they are called Ronin. Or so I read anyway, correct me if I'm wrong. But I guess that's just being picky anyway

Bear · Post by **Bear** » Fri Jul 11, 2003 4:29 am

Also PC police.... People aren't oriental....they are Asian. Rugs and such are oriental.... At least this is what my beautiful Asian woman tell me

Bear

Fifty · Post by **Fifty** » Fri Jul 11, 2003 7:21 am

Bear wrote:Also PC police.... People aren't oriental....they are Asian. Rugs and such are oriental.... At least this is what my beautiful Asian woman tell me

Bear

I use the term oriental to distinguish between someone from, for example, India and, for example, Japan or China.

What term would you prefer me to use to make this distinction?

Fifty · Post by **Fifty** » Fri Jul 11, 2003 7:23 am

TheBluDragon wrote:
Fifty wrote: Perhaps there could be some rationale why a few oriental characters might be leaving there homeland and coming to Mikona? A final battle for control of the country leaving many samurai and other types lordless perhaps? (direct historical parallel being the battle of Sekigahara)
Actually a lordless Samurai is no longer a samurai, they are called Ronin. Or so I read anyway, correct me if I'm wrong. But I guess that's just being picky anyway

A ronin is still a samurai.

A ronin is a lordless samurai.

A non-samurai without a lord would just be a bandit/mercenary or whatever.

In general you could not become a ronin without first having been a samurai.

Scurvy_Platypus · Post by **Scurvy_Platypus** » Fri Jul 11, 2003 7:52 am

As well, they prefered and used the term Bushi when referring to themselves. "Samurai" had a bit of a negative connotation for them, as it's meaning is in part related to being a servant.

As well, it was not unheard of for a Bushi to travel, especially on his Lord's business. It was with the change to the Tokugawa regime that a number of things changed for the Bushi, including the need to maintain two households effectively, along with numerous other things. Most people have a rather blurred mess of what the Bushi were, what they became as Samurai, and some other crap mixed in.

If you're going to use history for a template, you'd do well to pick a time period, and then start building from there.

Fifty · Post by **Fifty** » Fri Jul 11, 2003 8:43 am

Scurvy_Platypus wrote:As well, they prefered and used the term Bushi when referring to themselves. "Samurai" had a bit of a negative connotation for them, as it's meaning is in part related to being a servant.

As well, it was not unheard of for a Bushi to travel, especially on his Lord's business. It was with the change to the Tokugawa regime that a number of things changed for the Bushi, including the need to maintain two households effectively, along with numerous other things. Most people have a rather blurred mess of what the Bushi were, what they became as Samurai, and some other crap mixed in.

If you're going to use history for a template, you'd do well to pick a time period, and then start building from there.

The best period probably being Sengoku Jidai - the period just previous to the start of the Tokugawa Shogunate, and what most people think about when they think "samurai", i.e. when there were a whole bunch of Daimyo (warlords) fighting for control of the country.

Fuzz · Post by **Fuzz** » Fri Jul 11, 2003 9:29 am

Fifty wrote:
Bear wrote:Also PC police.... People aren't oriental....they are Asian. Rugs and such are oriental.... At least this is what my beautiful Asian woman tell me

Bear
I use the term oriental to distinguish between someone from, for example, India and, for example, Japan or China.

What term would you prefer me to use to make this distinction?

I'm South Asian. (India, Pakistan) China, Korea, Japan would be considered East Asian. Thai, Vietnamese, and Malaysian people would be considered Southeast Asian... pretty self explanatory.

Calling an East Asian person Oriental (especially one bigger than you) is a good way to get an ass kicking or a few choice insults thrown at you. It's also really rude...

choraldances · Post by **choraldances** » Fri Jul 11, 2003 3:52 pm

Fifty wrote:
Bear wrote:Also PC police.... People aren't oriental....they are Asian. Rugs and such are oriental.... At least this is what my beautiful Asian woman tell me

Bear
I use the term oriental to distinguish between someone from, for example, India and, for example, Japan or China.

What term would you prefer me to use to make this distinction?

What about people from China = Chinese and people from Japan = Japanese. ? That always works for me.

Ykirhs · Post by **Ykirhs** » Fri Jul 11, 2003 5:18 pm

Fifty wrote: A ronin is still a samurai.

A ronin is a lordless samurai.

A non-samurai without a lord would just be a bandit/mercenary or whatever.

In general you could not become a ronin without first having been a samurai.

So where do the Kenshi fit in? i.e. someone with a Katana (Maybe not the wachizachi) but no legal reason to have one (i.e. never had a lord)?

Fuzz · Post by **Fuzz** » Fri Jul 11, 2003 6:01 pm

Ykirhs wrote:
Fifty wrote: A ronin is still a samurai.

A ronin is a lordless samurai.

A non-samurai without a lord would just be a bandit/mercenary or whatever.

In general you could not become a ronin without first having been a samurai.
So where do the Kenshi fit in? i.e. someone with a Katana (Maybe not the wachizachi) but no legal reason to have one (i.e. never had a lord)?

Bandit, Mercenary, or just an untrained warrior. During the time period Fifty described, a well-made katana was actually VERY rare. Metal goods were never cheap in Japan, since the country lacks any appreciable ore deposits. As such, the average fighting man had a rake or a stick as a weapon, or just used their bare hands. Samurai in their full regalia with armor and blades were VERY expensive. Only the richest nobles, in fact, had the money to even afford the equipment, and as such, in real life the title of samurai was more for prestige than anything else... there was no great leap in the level of training they recieved, making them better fighters, they just had the means to better outfit themselves for the most part.

In later periods, (1500-1600s) however, when Japan began to import metals from Korea, (which they controlled) there was a big dichotomy between the old samurai witht he full battle regalia and elaborate weapons, and those with a sword that knew how to use it, but never were officially allied with any sort of feudal lord. This is when Ronin started becoming a term used for any sort of skilled fighter that had no allegiances, simply because you couldn't tell the ex-samurais apart from the guys that picked up a sword, trained, and knew how to use it well.

Enough verbal diarrhea for me... work with that, if it helps.

Fifty · Post by **Fifty** » Sat Jul 12, 2003 3:02 am

choraldances wrote:
Fifty wrote:
Bear wrote:Also PC police.... People aren't oriental....they are Asian. Rugs and such are oriental.... At least this is what my beautiful Asian woman tell me

Bear
I use the term oriental to distinguish between someone from, for example, India and, for example, Japan or China.

What term would you prefer me to use to make this distinction?
What about people from China = Chinese and people from Japan = Japanese. ? That always works for me.

Well maybe 'cos there is no Japan or China in Avlis?

It would be a bit like saying "My character in Avlis is from Scotland". You wouldn't say Scottish, you would say Celtic. I wouldn't say Norway, or Scandinavia, I would say Nordic.

Fifty · Post by **Fifty** » Sat Jul 12, 2003 3:03 am

Fuzz wrote:
Fifty wrote:
Bear wrote:Also PC police.... People aren't oriental....they are Asian. Rugs and such are oriental.... At least this is what my beautiful Asian woman tell me

Bear
I use the term oriental to distinguish between someone from, for example, India and, for example, Japan or China.

What term would you prefer me to use to make this distinction?
I'm South Asian. (India, Pakistan) China, Korea, Japan would be considered East Asian. Thai, Vietnamese, and Malaysian people would be considered Southeast Asian... pretty self explanatory.

Calling an East Asian person Oriental (especially one bigger than you) is a good way to get an ass kicking or a few choice insults thrown at you. It's also really rude...

FFS, there is no Asia in Avlis. Asia is a place, Oriental is (IMO) more of an idea. Thus you can have an oriental setting or background, but not an Asian one. Even the D&D P&P setting is an "oriental" one isn't it?

I can't refer to South East Asians in Avlis, cos there is no Asia! Just like there is no Europe!

And I never called anyone from the real world "Oriental" 'cos I already know that many people find it insulting. (Check my "from" - you don't go and live in Japan without trying to learn a few things about the people).

I'll accept that maybe I worded my post badly and that maybe I should have said "I use the term oriental to distinguish between someone from, for example, an Indian-type country and, for example, Japanese or Chinese like country". But you are over-reacting.

Bear · Post by **Bear** » Sat Jul 12, 2003 4:40 am

Hey no offense....I didn't fully understand the distinction till my Berkeley schooled Asian woman told me.... I wasn't sure that you appreciated the difference until your last post....that and I was bored at work....that and I need to catch my posts up to Aloro so I have to post a lot of digressions....

Have fun in Japan

Bear

Fifty · Post by **Fifty** » Sat Jul 12, 2003 6:30 am

Bear wrote:Hey no offense....I didn't fully understand the distinction till my Berkeley schooled Asian woman told me.... I wasn't sure that you appreciated the difference until your last post....that and I was bored at work....that and I need to catch my posts up to Aloro so I have to post a lot of digressions....

Have fun in Japan

Bear

Thanks, I have had lots of fun over the last two years, but actually I will be moving back to the UK in about 3 weeks.

You should visit Japan one day, but skip the big cities and come to Kyushu, the southern island. Tokyo sucks.

Magnum Kelinery · Post by **Magnum Kelinery** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 4:29 am

Ahhh.... this is really hard to make a samurai-like character in Avlis now isnt it?

I just made one

and... well I would really like to be not oriental, but just be taught the style and stuff like fifty said... is that possible?

Post by **Orleron** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 2:39 pm

Remember that there is very little contact right now between Khanjar Kuro and the main continent of Avlis. Getting a Samurai style character would require a VERY good explanation.

Also things to note:

* The only playable race in NWN that exists on both Khanjar Kuro and Avlis is human.

* Yes, this means that there are no elves or dwarves or anything like that on Khanjar Kuro. The races on Khanjar Kuro are the same ones listed in the Oriental Adventures guide, and there is an in-game Avlis reason for it which I have yet to tell anyone.

Fenodyree · Post by **Fenodyree** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 1:55 pm

Okay, so I went to see Last Samurai this weekend and it was ace. It has resulted in a severe interest in playing a samurai style character in Avlis. I searched the boards and this was the last word on samurai I could find. The last post here was 6 months or so ago.

What's the latest word? Can we make samurai/ronin from Khanjar Kuro?

Cheers!

Brannor · Post by **Brannor** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 2:51 pm

Fifty wrote:Well maybe 'cos there is no Japan or China in Avlis?

It would be a bit like saying "My character in Avlis is from Scotland". You wouldn't say Scottish, you would say Celtic. I wouldn't say Norway, or Scandinavia, I would say Nordic.

Close but a tad incorrect.
Scandinavia is the region of Norway, Sweden and Finnland (and also a little bit of dennmark IIRC).
So basicly all people form their would be called scandinavians.

The *Celts* per-se are not a *people* just like you could not call all africans *africans* because they are mearly a bunch of people that come from one area.

The problem with saying scottish = celtic is that it is only a part of the entire celtic pot.
From them also came the vikings and the danes, many of the german ancestors, french (gauls iirc), iceland and the people from ireland that later were to become the scottish (picts iirc).

All VERY diverse and bundeling them into one group is kinda hard.

And if anything the Japanes & chinese are asians.
the orient was between what is now israel/palestine and india (aprox)

But I would stick to the countries definition.
If you char looks like braveheart then damn compare him with the scottish.

Many here like apsk can tell you how many different people live in their countries.
Hell even in germany you would catch a sour-glance if you called a bavarian a preussian.

Cath · Post by **Cath** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 3:19 pm

Close but a tad incorrect.
Scandinavia is the region of Norway, Sweden and Finnland (and also a little bit of dennmark IIRC).
So basicly all people form their would be called scandinavians.

Close but a tad incorrect

Sorry I just had to...
Scandinavia = Sweden, Norway, Denmark.

The World of Avlis

Oriental type characters

Oriental type characters

Re: Oriental type characters

Re: Oriental type characters

Re: Oriental type characters

Re: Oriental type characters

Re: Oriental type characters