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PostAuthor: Aloro » Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:49 am

WrathOG777 wrote:Noone is going to kill you for no other reason then you being evil. If they do, you just let the team know.

Right. If you kill someone because they follow an Evil god, and for no other reason, you're committing an act of Evil yourself. Likewise, if you kill someone because you think they're a bad person, but NOT for something they've done (i.e. alignment killings) that is Evil. It's also usually metagaming, since we typically don't know people's alignment IC.

Good characters can kill others to punish them for specific crimes. It is only a Good act if it is done to discourage further crimes. Good characters can also kill for a cause they believe is right - e.g. as a soldier in the army.

Neutral people can kill others for revenge, to punish them, or for a cause they believe is right.

Evil people can kill others. :twisted:

- Aloro
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn wrote:The meaning of earthly existence lies, not as we have grown used to thinking, in prosperity, but in the development of the soul.
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PostAuthor: choraldances » Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:57 pm

Aloro wrote:
I know of one pacifist CG cleric who only harms undead, as well. He didn't start out that way, that's just where he ended up. ;)

- Aloro

Yeah, he lays eggs when he bumps into a goblin.
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PostAuthor: keikobad » Wed Jan 21, 2004 7:39 pm

Don't forget the simplicity of ordinary evil. You don't have to be a cartoon ultra-villain to be profoundly evil. I prefer trying to carefully picture a personality first, and then picking the alignment later.

IMO (and I'm curious to hear what people think) these are all perfectly viable CE types:

The Gambler: dissipates his life in drink, bets, and whores. Lacks any major goals, though he might imagine having some, especially when drunk and chatting with women. Each day his gambling obsession ends up directing his actions, as he is driven to do whatever it takes to return to the table.

Bon Vivant: Living the good life is all he wants. When his pockets are full, he's a big-hearted fellow-- everyone's invited to his parties. When his funds dwindle, his nasty side appears. He'll borrow from others without meaning to repay them; steal if he can get away with it. Any money-making scheme will appeal to him, regardless of how its obtained.

To me, CE doesn't mean that you can't take orders or recognize that there are laws. It means that, when you consider obeying an order or committing an illegal act, you will be guided by the consideration of what would happen to you if you do or don't do it, not what your societal obligations are.

Thus, you could have a CE pirate who is perfectly happy following his smart and charismatic captain, so long as the captain continues to lead him to fortune and victory. But if the crew falls on hard times, the captain gets too strict and cuts off the grog allowance, mutinous thoughts appear.

Similarly you could have a CE soldier who lives for the fight. He will follow a leader stronger than him who commands his respect. He might often get in lethal fights in taverns and his record will be poor, as the only rules he remembers are the simple ones that have been beaten into his head. But his fellow soldiers don't worry that he'll suddenly start fighting them on the battlefield because he's insane and feels the urge to kill something.
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PostAuthor: Spell Singer » Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:14 pm

The point about evil characters is they are alone even when they are in a group. That is the point of being Selfish. You are concerned first about yourself and second about the other people in your organisation (true even of LE for the most part).

Chaotic evil is basicaly an extreme version of Me First. You don't have to be stupid, or to be insane (insane is closer to CN) or anything else but you should always be thinking about yourself and bettering yourself. This is why most CE "organisations" fall appart rapidly. Not necessarily when things are going badly since allies in that case make sense...and if saving your skin requires you to suck up to so and so...well it will make skinning them later all the more enjoyable.

Lawful evil on the other hand can have this feel of "for the good of the group" but it is largely a feel not a reality since the LE people are still concerned with their standing in the group. But here is where you could get the "loyal right hand of the evil slime" and this would make sense. You would promote the interests of the Evil Slime and he would recongnise your efforts rewarding you, and hence bettering your position and since a threat to him is a threat to you...well I think it should be clear.

Neutral Evil (or netural good) never made any sense to is sort of a D&D thing that is a bit silly to me. But that is personal opinon. I would almost suggest all evil players start at NE and then see which way they turn out (CE or LE).

Anyway the other thing that is pretty much a staple of Evil is that is it based on deception and fear. Evil decieves itself as often as anyone else and the true basis of what goes on in an evil organisation is fear. No one should have an evil character who does not have at the heart of their characters these two things...again a personal opinon. Evil organisations are rife with fear...LE for example likes rules so they can punish those who break them not because they believe in rules "rules are for the lower ranks to ensure they do not progress easily to become a threat to me." that is is sort of the attitude they tend to take.

Still at the end of the day evil comes down to looking out for yourself without a concern for the affect that will have for others. This does not mean you can not help others, but that in the end you are doing so to realy help yourself. And that means even in a group you are alone (well unles you find yourself the trusty right hand man type to support you) since you know everyone else is thinking the same way you are ... only of course *you* are the chosen one and they will soon be worshiping at your feet and begging to clean your toes...

And as I have told the others in the Order of Gorethar, we are there to destroy evil not kill people.

I guess Jad needs to set up a time for that lecture on the nature of evil...

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PostAuthor: Mistcaller » Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:29 pm

Great description of evil forms Spell Singer! I share the same views exactly...
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PostAuthor: WrathOG777 » Wed Jan 28, 2004 7:12 pm

hehe, accept that selfish and loyalty are not parts of the avlis definition of evil.

Strangg wrote:As a rule, "good" is the concern for the welfare of
other sentient creatures. "Evil" is the inverse, a lack of concern for the
welfare of others.

Loyalty is not something that is governed by good/evil. Folks can care very little about anyones survival and still have friends they like and are loyal to. Just because a baron does not care if the peasants starve does not mean he does not love his wife and treat her like a queen.
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