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contact and hostile

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contact and hostile

PostAuthor: Stravento » Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:57 am

I have a doubt regarding contact, and I didn't find an answer in the wiki.

Before attempting a contact should I set hostile even if I have no harmful intentions?

Contact lowers the saving throws of the target so it is in theory an "harmful" intervention.
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Re: contact and hostile

PostAuthor: Ghostie » Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:23 am

If a spell, ability or other means dazes, paralyzes, blinds, harms or otherwise negatively affects someone else's combat ability then you are to set hostile first.

On the other hand, if you simply apply non-harming effects to yourself or someone else before battle then you do not have to declare hostile.
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Re: contact and hostile

PostAuthor: Stravento » Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:03 am

I am still unclear, sorry to ask again for clarification. I'll make the example that made me ask:

today I was in a situation in which my psion was trying to discover who was a psion around him, so he contacted a couple of persons. Contacts lower the saving throws, thus enters in the category "negatively affects someone else's combat ability", but THERE WAS NO INTENTION TO ATTACK ANYBODY. I clarified that via an ooc tell.

Should I have set hostile before doing that?

If such is the case, could I substitute in future the contact with a tell, something like "somebody gently touches your mind investigating if it's open to psionic/capable of psionic".

thanks
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Re: contact and hostile

PostAuthor: Sapperken » Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:50 am

Yes, you should set hostile. Ghostie answered that. Contact, by lowering saves, negatively affects someone else's combat ability.

If such is the case, could I substitute in future the contact with a tell, something like "somebody gently touches your mind investigating if it's open to psionic/capable of psionic".


This is cheesing.

I'm not going to say you can't do it, but you cannot force another player to play along if they don't wish to.
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Re: contact and hostile

PostAuthor: spool32 » Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:41 am

I'll say you can't do it: Psionics are one-way. Absent a DM presence, you can glean NOTHING about another person via psionics. Contact lowers the ability of the target to resist further psionic attacks... it tells you absolutely nothing, at all, whatsoever, about the target (unless you specifically have a DM's permission for that specific situation). Not his class, his abilities, his mental state, what God he worships, his psionic capability, what he had for breakfast, if he's looking at your boobs, if his favorite color is orange, or anything else. Psionics are one-way - from you to target. Nothing flows back to the psionicist without a DM's specific permission.

Of course, some players are going to be OK with allowing psionic backwash, but: some other players might not, and as a good member of the community you should not force 3rd parties to RP your cheese, even if both you and your cheese's target are OK with playing along.

-spool32

Edit: Just to clarify, I ask psionicists to use Contact and Object Reading all the time as a means of allowing the PC a chance to gather information during my DM events... don't get the idea that I'm against the class or the powers. I'm just against cheesing it without a DM around.
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Re: contact and hostile

PostAuthor: GimpGenius » Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:15 am

Just for my own clarification: let's say Sally Psion uses contact against another PC, after setting hostile. The target is a psionic PC (i.e. contact doesn't work, as the mind is closed to traditional methods of contact). Would Sally know that something's up and that the mind's closed?

My reason for asking is that, if we don't know anything, at all, ever, regarding tangents or establishing a psionic link (one-way as it may be), it's a hard sell to use psionic attack modes/establish the three tangents necessary for a psion-psion contact. Not knowing would lead to a whole slew of problems, such as how we know that we need three tangents, whether we know a tangent's been established, etc. etc.

Maybe I'm overthinking it; but if we don't/can't know those sorts of things, some rationale of the power sets would, I think, clarify a lot for all of us.

Thanks. :)

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Re: contact and hostile

PostAuthor: Stravento » Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:03 pm

Thanks for the clarification, I'll set hostile before contacting.

I have two further questions:

1) Regarding the point GimpGenious make:

The fact that I receive an in game message from the engine that says the mind is closed, or the creature doesn't have a mind, or "will save success you fail to contact", or that I successfully contacted the target. Is that IC knowledge?

or is it in character knowledge only that I successfully or unsuccessfully established contact without knowing the reasons? This piece of information is technically not about the target, but about the establishment of a link with the target. The problem is that I could use it to infer if the target is a psion/undead/has strong will saves or not. Thus I would end up with incomplete information on the target.

or finally I don't know if contact is established or not, thus I can't use inference and the only way to know is to use a power that has a visual effect? This opens up the series of side effects that Gimp was hinting. If we can't discern if a contact is established then, can we discern if an attack is effective in establishing a tangent? Or can we only discern what has a phisical effect that we can see? So in case of telepathic fight I should keep attacking and attacking until one effect is actually applied and visible to the eye.

2) Is contact detectable by the person that does the will save or the psion that resists it?

Note: I truly don't care which one is chosen. I just need a guideline for when dms are not around and I am trying to rp a bit of psionic without stirring a number of tells. Moreover I am bit embarassed to be a psion and not know this stuff when people ask. Common sense is complicate to apply here.

Whatever is chosen can we move this and sticky it in the psions forum? Or we could write a new thread there.

Finally can I get some feedback on how to modify the following http://www.ysgard.org/viewtopic.php?t=2460 to fit Avlis rules and post it somewhere so that non psions have a guideline to what reactions they should have and if powers are detectable or not?

I am in irc all day long with the nick "straccio"

Thank you
Last edited by Stravento on Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:49 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: contact and hostile

PostAuthor: Moredo » Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:12 pm

Finally whatever is chosen can we move this and sticky it in the psions forum? Or we can write a new thread there.


I don't know anything about Psions, but we can definitely do that.
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Re: contact and hostile

PostAuthor: Calzier » Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:05 pm

This forum is not one for discussion. -Sapper
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Re: contact and hostile

PostAuthor: Sapperken » Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:56 pm

I'm not exactly an expert on psionics, so bear with me.

GimpGenius wrote:Just for my own clarification: let's say Sally Psion uses contact against another PC, after setting hostile. The target is a psionic PC (i.e. contact doesn't work, as the mind is closed to traditional methods of contact). Would Sally know that something's up and that the mind's closed?

This sounds like it should be something for the player to decide from past personal experiences of what they're pc has seen. Just starting from scratch, no, Sally would just know that contact did not work, unless there is IG/IC feedback saying otherwise.

Stravento wrote:The fact that I receive an in game message from the engine that says the mind is closed, or the creature doesn't have a mind, or "will save success you fail to contact", or that I successfully contacted the target. Is that IC knowledge?

Will save successes are ooc knowledge. You would just know that your contact failed, not why. If you successfully contacted the target, you would IC'ly know.

Stravento wrote:or is it in character knowledge only that I successfully or unsuccessfully established contact without knowing the reasons?

Yes, you would only know that you either established or failed to establish contact. You would not know the reasons. Personal IC experience should fill in the gaps on this on the knowledge. Not mechanical knowledge.

Stravento wrote:Is contact detectable by the person that does the will save or the psion that resists it?

Yes. Contact is detectable by the target. They may not know what exactly is happening, but they do know that something is happening. Again, personal IC experience should fill in the gaps.

Stravento wrote:Finally can I get some feedback on how to modify the following http://www.ysgard.org/viewtopic.php?t=2460 to fit Avlis rules and post it somewhere so that non psions have a guideline to what reactions they should have and if powers are detectable or not?

We will not force pc's on how to react to psionic powers. Powers are detectable if they have IG vfx's. If a pc is being forced to make saves, they will know something is happening. Likewise, if a pc is negatively or positively affected, they will know something happened.

Let's not reinvent the wheel.
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