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Setting to Hostile

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Setting to Hostile

PostAuthor: Jokester » Thu Jun 05, 2008 3:04 pm

I was wondering if someone could clarify for me the exact rules for setting to hostile. To my understanding you have to set the opposite character to hostile before taking any offensive actions, but do spell-like abilities-take Shadow Daze for instance-count as an offensive action? Thanks for any clarification.
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Re: Setting to Hostile

PostAuthor: PsiOmega » Thu Jun 05, 2008 3:07 pm

If a spell, ability or other means dazes, paralyzes, blinds, harms or otherwise negatively affects someone else's combat ability then you are to set hostile first.
On the other hand, if you simply apply non-harming effects to yourself or someone else before battle then you do not have to declare hostile.
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Re: Setting to Hostile

PostAuthor: Jokester » Thu Jun 05, 2008 3:19 pm

Thanks for clearing that up.
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Re: Setting to Hostile

PostAuthor: spool32 » Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:08 pm

Let me elaborate further... Setting hostile should not be confined merely to offensive actions within the scope of the game engine, but ANY offensive action. This icludes RP that you know or suspect might be viewed as offensive, even if you never take a swing.

Hostile is OOC, so if you're going to talk IC shit and things seem to be getting tense, go ahead and set the other PC(s) hostile. It can't hurt, eh?
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Re: Setting to Hostile

PostAuthor: korak » Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:42 pm

Also on setting hostile, if you plan on attacking someone you do not have to do it until the last second. You can do it as soon as you like or as late as you like, but just make sure you do it before any actual physical contact occurs.

I have been killed IG twice by PCs and both set me hostile at the last minute. One time I knew that it was going to happen anyways, but the other time I was not 100% certain and it made it much more exciting for me when they all of a sudden turned red and attacked. :)

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Re: Setting to Hostile

PostAuthor: PsiOmega » Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:51 pm

spool32 wrote:Hostile is OOC, so if you're going to talk IC shit and things seem to be getting tense, go ahead and set the other PC(s) hostile. It can't hurt, eh?

Is in many cases be appreciated but it isn't part of the actual rule :wink:
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Re: Setting to Hostile

PostAuthor: badjabadjabadja » Thu Jun 05, 2008 5:09 pm

May i ask for some clarification~ mainly regarding ranger/druids & their companions/dominated-animals.

1/. If a companion/AE'd-animal is attacked without setting the PC hostile, the animal will not fight back. This is extremely distressing ICly & OOCly, given that companions are much harder to raise than PCs. Assuming the animal is not being hostile to anyone, is there ANY excuse not to set the controlling PC hostile (ie didn't know which PC to hostile, etc)

2/. On setting a PC with controlled animals hostile, they are likely to attack. As hostiling is OOC.. this makes for a contradiction: a supposedly OOC event causes IC consequences. This is open to abuse of course, so to hostile someone with animals, should it be done (a) just before attacking or (b) send a Tell first to warn them so the animal(s) can be controlled first?

3/. Sort of related i guess: I've been told that setting a mage to hostile can provoke AoO spellcastings. I often will set hostile if having a screaming row with someone, to 'up' the atmosphere, even when i have no intention of attacking. If i provoke a Wail for example, & survive it, would i be justified in stabbing that mage severely? (assuming i survive the Wail).

A final related question, is there any way of turning AoO's off?, as they can be really annoying.

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Re: Setting to Hostile

PostAuthor: Jokester » Thu Jun 05, 2008 5:11 pm

So hypothetically speaking if two people were to get into a conflict and one fled, then the person who throws an effect at the runner would be required to set him to hostile even if there wasn't enough time really to?
Last edited by Jokester on Thu Jun 05, 2008 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Setting to Hostile

PostAuthor: Ensoleille » Thu Jun 05, 2008 5:12 pm

I know this is AtT, so please don't pwn me. *waves a white flag*

I just wanted to add that YOU (the attacker) need to physically push the hostile button on your player list.

Just because a person appears hostile to you does not mean you appear hostile to them unless YOU have clicked the hostile button.

I've been attacked before where I had previously set the person hostile, then I set them to neutral again (for some reason that I don't remember) -- but I was still hostile on their screen and they attacked me without clicking the hostile button...so my character couldn't attack right away because they did not show up as hostile on my screen. If I recall, this is a weird engine bug that sometimes crops up.
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Re: Setting to Hostile

PostAuthor: PsiOmega » Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:05 pm

Jokester wrote:So hypothetically speaking if two people were to get into a conflict and one fled, then the person who throws an effect at the runner would be required to set him to hostile even if there wasn't enough time really to?

Correct.

Ensoleille wrote:I've been attacked before where I had previously set the person hostile, then I set them to neutral again -- but I was still hostile on their screen.

This is how the engine works and is not a bug. Both parties needs to set each other back to neutral after one of them have declared the other hostile.
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Re: Setting to Hostile

PostAuthor: Grunt » Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:10 pm

Also keep in mind that Pickpocketing is another action that requires you to set hostile first.
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Re: Setting to Hostile

PostAuthor: PsiOmega » Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:18 pm

1/. If a companion/AE'd-animal is attacked without setting the PC hostile, the animal will not fight back. This is extremely distressing ICly & OOCly, given that companions are much harder to raise than PCs. Assuming the animal is not being hostile to anyone, is there ANY excuse not to set the controlling PC hostile (ie didn't know which PC to hostile, etc)

If you plan to attack a companion and know who the owner is then do set hostile. We are planning to implement a feature to make this much simpler in the future if you do not know the owner.

2/. On setting a PC with controlled animals hostile, they are likely to attack. As hostiling is OOC.. this makes for a contradiction: a supposedly OOC event causes IC consequences. This is open to abuse of course, so to hostile someone with animals, should it be done (a) just before attacking or (b) send a Tell first to warn them so the animal(s) can be controlled first?

Either way would work. To declare someone Hostile just get their familiar to attack would be to exploit the engine and will get our attention.

3/. Sort of related i guess: I've been told that setting a mage to hostile can provoke AoO spellcastings. I often will set hostile if having a screaming row with someone, to 'up' the atmosphere, even when i have no intention of attacking. If i provoke a Wail for example, & survive it, would i be justified in stabbing that mage severely? (assuming i survive the Wail).

What you are referring to is a rare but highly annoying engine bug which can affect anyone declared hostile (making them cast random spells, draw weapons and attack, etc.). If most/everyone realize this has happened, it is usually quite obvious when it does, then I suggest that you attempt to sort it out OOC:ly since it was caused by an OOC engine quirk. It is rare though and to blame this bug for various actions to avoid consequences is also a good way to get our attention.

A final related question, is there any way of turning AoO's off?, as they can be really annoying.

No. Only solution is to not use them.
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Re: Setting to Hostile

PostAuthor: Ellowin » Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:24 pm

This is where Tells can be incredibly helpful. If you set someone hostile and then things calm down and you return them to neutral be sure to send a quick Tell "I've taken you off of hostile" or whatever seems appropriate. This lets them know that if they want to continue towards a physical conflict they'll have to re-set to hostile. It also helps with keeping a handle on animal companions, familiars, summons, etc. The "stand your ground" command is VERY useful for extraneous creatures, as well.

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Re: Setting to Hostile

PostAuthor: badjabadjabadja » Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:22 pm

Thanks for the replies, but.. main thing I am not clear on, is what is the right thing to do if an attacker is not sure who to hostile? & should more 'natural' animal summonses be treated the same as 'un-natural' .. ie demonic/undead?

As going ahead & attacking the animal/companion/familiar provokes the same response as a tree .. it just stands there & lets itself be butchered, I see this as a gross abuse of the game engine. I know its not always easy to hostile the right person, if they are not in the area, or if they are concealed, but assuming the animal itself is not doing anything to provoke an attack, shouldn't the attacker hostile the entire server (at least until the animal shows up red) rather than attack without setting hostile? If the animal/summons is attacking NPCs or is plainly a hostile type entity, is it fair to attack without hostiling the owner first?

If you crash in CvC, am i right in thinking that you will appear non-hostile to who-ever you hostiled before? So then you would need to click that button again..

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badja wrote:A final related question, is there any way of turning AoO's off?, as they can be really annoying.


No. Only solution is to not use them.


um.. am thinking of Attacks of Opportunity here.. not Area Affect spells.. like if under Greater Sanc, can you set self to ~passive~ so as not to break sanctuary because the game engine decides you NEED to stab that nearby hostile caster... sorry to be muddying up the ~always set hostile~ rule here, but i find summonses/companions etc make for this to be something of a gray area. Anything the team can do to make this easier/clearer is much appreciated!

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Re: Setting to Hostile

PostAuthor: PsiOmega » Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:41 pm

Ah, my mistake. There is nothing you can do about AoO's either besides always carrying a ranged weapon which for some reason does not make you auto-attack.

If you crash in CvC, am i right in thinking that you will appear non-hostile to who-ever you hostiled before? So then you would need to click that button again..

Yes. Party as well as Hostile settings are reset on crash.
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Re: Setting to Hostile

PostAuthor: spool32 » Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:44 pm

badjabadjabadja wrote:Thanks for the replies, but.. main thing I am not clear on, is what is the right thing to do if an attacker is not sure who to hostile? & should more 'natural' animal summonses be treated the same as 'un-natural' .. ie demonic/undead?

As going ahead & attacking the animal/companion/familiar provokes the same response as a tree .. it just stands there & lets itself be butchered, I see this as a gross abuse of the game engine. I know its not always easy to hostile the right person, if they are not in the area, or if they are concealed, but assuming the animal itself is not doing anything to provoke an attack, shouldn't the attacker hostile the entire server (at least until the animal shows up red) rather than attack without setting hostile? If the animal/summons is attacking NPCs or is plainly a hostile type entity, is it fair to attack without hostiling the owner first?


It's OOC... just hostile everyone. When in doubt, overkill. Also, people summoning demons or undead in view of cities that don't tolerate them should be expecting a fight... please don't cheese your balor summon through elf gate. The guard should be freaking out.

It's never fair to attack a summon without setting hostile first. That said, if you're summoning undead things around a bunch of Gorethites, you probably should tell the summon to stand ground, and set them all hostile yourself. Common sense and courtesy to the other players can account for most of the grey areas.

PoD wrote:
badja wrote:A final related question, is there any way of turning AoO's off?, as they can be really annoying.


No. Only solution is to not use them.


um.. am thinking of Attacks of Opportunity here.. not Area Affect spells.. like if under Greater Sanc, can you set self to ~passive~ so as not to break sanctuary because the game engine decides you NEED to stab that nearby hostile caster... sorry to be muddying up the ~always set hostile~ rule here, but i find summonses/companions etc make for this to be something of a gray area. Anything the team can do to make this easier/clearer is much appreciated!


Might be nice to be able to do that but I suspect we won't be coding anything like that. The thig is, there are problems with both sides of the rule, and with all possible solutions. I remember the animal companion question coming up when we discussed this and changed the rule such that hostile is OOC... the consensus was that the problems created by the rule in the form we have today weren't as severe as the problems we solved by changing it from when the rule was different in days past.

We're never going to escape all the problems and have a perfectly functional hostile setting... we feel that actoss the entire playerbase, this is the solution with the fewest problems.

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Re: Setting to Hostile

PostAuthor: Marleh » Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:57 pm

PsiOmega wrote:Ah, my mistake. There is nothing you can do about AoO's either besides always carrying a ranged weapon which for some reason does not make you auto-attack.


Not to interrupt AtT, but your character may still auto-attack with a bow.
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Re: Setting to Hostile

PostAuthor: PsiOmega » Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:07 pm

Marleh wrote:
PsiOmega wrote:Ah, my mistake. There is nothing you can do about AoO's either besides always carrying a ranged weapon which for some reason does not make you auto-attack.


Not to interrupt AtT, but your character may still auto-attack with a bow.

I do hope having a ranged weapon (sling/bow/crossbow) but not the proper ammo should do though.
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Re: Setting to Hostile

PostAuthor: Ellowin » Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:02 pm

Auto-attack is a PITA. My main is an archer, but has actually put her bow away and pulled out an axe and a mining pick I'd nearly forgotten about and charged someone. :roll: I've actually seen her put her bow away and go for melee weapons nearly every time the auto-attack bug has happened...note I said ~nearly~, there have been times when she's drawn her bow for no good reason, too. Hell, I've even had her cast spells she doesn't even know!

This oddness seems to happen in 2 circumstances:

1. PC A is hostile to PC B and casts an AoE spell, PC B then auto-attacks in new and interesting ways.
2. PC A and PC B have just concluded CvC, PC A heals PC B from the bleeding script and sets him back to neutral...however, PC B hasn't set PC A back to neutral yet. As they stand RPing PC A randomly auto-attacks PC B.

Yes, it's bloody odd, but it's what we've got so we have to work within whatever strange limits we are provided.
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Re: Setting to Hostile

PostAuthor: PsiOmega » Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:17 pm

I've had this happen more than once with a group of PCs standing around a single hostile one, no one doing anything at all besides talking.
Then without warning everyone goes haywire, equips weapons they never use, use spells they don't have memorized and slaughter the poor lone guy.

It's rare, annoying and it happens for no other reason but PCs being hostile to each other.
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Re: Setting to Hostile

PostAuthor: Trigger » Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:10 pm

Jokester wrote:So hypothetically speaking if two people were to get into a conflict and one fled, then the person who throws an effect at the runner would be required to set him to hostile even if there wasn't enough time really to?


I'm pretty sure this is me.

Eleanor was winding up a dwarf (i forget the name) earlier and he ran, so I tried to stop him from running by casting shadow daze, I just did it on the fly and I had no intention of attacking the guy.

I know I should have set hostiles first and i apologise. It was totally my bad and it won't happen again.

Sorry.

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Re: Setting to Hostile

PostAuthor: Jokester » Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:34 pm

Heh, no problem. I actually thought I had misunderstood the rules and I just wanted to make sure I, myself, didn't do anything wrong. Don't worry about it; everything was cool and it actually was pretty fun for such a brief encounter.
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Re: Setting to Hostile

PostAuthor: Joeyo » Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:42 am

What about if a surge just happens to create an area affect? It does happen sometimes. Sometimes it also just flat out kills people, or blows them up. I'm assuming that since its an accident and not a real hostile action, i don't have to set everyone on the server hostile when i log in, right?
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Re: Setting to Hostile

PostAuthor: Darkfire » Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:43 am

Joeyo wrote:What about if a surge just happens to create an area affect? It does happen sometimes. Sometimes it also just flat out kills people, or blows them up. I'm assuming that since its an accident and not a real hostile action, i don't have to set everyone on the server hostile when i log in, right?


You are an exception. If that happens, you won't be in trouble for "attacking" someone without setting hostile first. It's not even that it is an accident IC'ly or OOC'ly, it's the fact that you have no control or prior knowledge of when it's going to happen OOC'ly.
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Re: Setting to Hostile

PostAuthor: spool32 » Fri Jun 06, 2008 4:15 am

Darkfire wrote:
Joeyo wrote:What about if a surge just happens to create an area affect? It does happen sometimes. Sometimes it also just flat out kills people, or blows them up. I'm assuming that since its an accident and not a real hostile action, i don't have to set everyone on the server hostile when i log in, right?


You are an exception. If that happens, you won't be in trouble for "attacking" someone without setting hostile first. It's not even that it is an accident IC'ly or OOC'ly, it's the fact that you have no control or prior knowledge of when it's going to happen OOC'ly.


+1, wild magic surges are not subject to this. Good catch, guys.
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