The World of Avlis

Offtopic response to this response in the "NWN2 Article" thread:
http://www.avlis.org/viewtopic.php?p=683838#683838

drunkenpig wrote:I think that over time the larger ones will face a choice: convert or shut down. As more people switch to NWN 2, the pool of potential players for NWN 1 PW will dwindle. You'll have die hards that stick with NWN 1, but a majority will switch to NWN 2. At some point, there will be a someone who immitates Copap for NWN 2. Whether or not they succeed only the years will tell.

Well, not entirely accurate. There's nothing preventing anybody from having both NWN1 and NWN2 installed (at least I'm assuming that they can cohabitate). Online RPG's with an RP focus tend to be very "sticky", witness the number of text based MUD's that still operate today. What's important are depth, consistency and community. Having the latest in graphic goodies only gets people in the door, if your world doesn't have any depth, people won't stick around.

Khaelindra wrote:Yup, same as with Diablo. The game still has a small and ever-slinking group of die-hard fans, but almost all new players went to DiabloII, so in the end it's a dying fossil because the influx doesn't match the outflux.

The Diablo's aren't RPG's they're Action games, in other words, no depth. Consequently they're succeptible to the next great thing syndrome.

drunkenpig wrote:I think that over time the larger ones will face a choice: convert or shut down. As more people switch to NWN 2, the pool of potential players for NWN 1 PW will dwindle. You'll have die hards that stick with NWN 1, but a majority will switch to NWN 2. At some point, there will be a someone who immitates Copap for NWN 2. Whether or not they succeed only the years will tell.

You will have players that play for the graphics, neat stuff, and engine switching to NWNII. Anyone here for the RP, the community and the other players will not really have a need to move on, now will they?

Khaelindra wrote:Yup, same as with Diablo. The game still has a small and ever-slinking group of die-hard fans, but almost all new players went to DiabloII, so in the end it's a dying fossil because the influx doesn't match the outflux.

Diablo suffers from the Next Big THing Syndrome, just like PJ said, but another thing is that Diablo is flawed in that it runs on Blizzards servers on the WON network. Subsequently, they are seeing massive lag as Blizzard is using those same servers for WoW.

NWN is a home client run game. It will not be impossible to run without Gamespy when they go under, but so long as other games run on Gamespy, they have no reason to shut their doors or stop supporting any game. You can still set up an online Baldurs Gate game through them.

Personally, I'm looking forward to working with (what should be) much better tools in NWN2. But that doesn't preclude me from playing NWN's somewhere if it's still fun to do so. Depends, if you judge things by eye candy and features alone, then NWN's will probably be unbearable after NWN2 ships. If you judge things more on the actual experience then you probably can still find enjoyment in NWN's.

There are other considerations too. For example, Bio is still adding content and some features to NWN's. I believe this next patch should be very content heavy and include things that could certainly reviatalize a lot of lagging spirits. Also, the sheer amount of content available for NWN's will dwarf that of NWN2 for a very long time -- it may never eclipse NWN's breadth of available content.

Also, what of support? I mean Bio is not doing NWN2 -- Obsidian is. As much as I have faith in Obsidian's abilities I do wonder if they have the capacity to maintain NWN2 in the fashion Bio has done for NWN. Will we see support continuing for 3 years after the initial sale of NWN2?

Having said all that, if asked to choose I would probably lean to NWN2 if it turns out to be as improved as it seems to be. Have to see when its out. I definitely won't be looking to build anything in NWN when NWN2 comes out. But I could certainly find myself still playing NWN. That slant might, over time, erode my desire to play the original, though.

Not sure where this thread is supposed to go, but as far as my analogy was meant to go: regardless of Blizzard-servers or action-thingy vs. RP-thingy, the principle is that NEW players tend to look at the NEW games. It's not that NWN1 or Avlis suddenly is bad or will se many people walking away mroe then they do now, as in through natural attrition. The outflux won't go up much (still a bit, you alway shave peple wanting to explore new things/games/looks).
What i tried, apparently not very eloquently, to point the analogy to is the problem with the influx. At this moment, X% of the people coming into RPG-games find NWN. That X% will be split across NWN1 and NWN2 in a year, with most of them probably going to NWN2 as that will be marketed more agressively, look flashier, have more options, have more article-coverage, etc. This means that maybe we have like x/4 % of those new players actually going to NWN1, and the rest focussing on the new game. Hence we get far less influx.
Then after another year, when NWN2 has it's own settled communities, the biggest advantage NWN1 had over NWN2 (established worlds/ communities) will have been levelled, and only a few people will decide to play "the old game" and most will play "the new game that gets most attention from the patch-makers, marketeers and critics", those choosing for the older game probably doing so because they are acquainted to someone already in such an "old" community.

So, simply put my theory: the longer NWN2 is out, the less NWN1 has to offer to compensate for all the improvements made, so influx will drop to under the outflux from normal attrition and people progressing to the newer games.


Personally i probably will play both. Even that will mean that i will spend less time on NWN1 though, simply because my NWN2-time will have to come from somewhere.


Mickey.

if people will buid a nice rp pw on nwn2, Im going to play there. Of course,not only eyecandy counts, but it does a lot for me
I will keep playing avlis as well, but not just only avlis.
nwn2 looks to neat to not play it online.

I've never thought this issue is about the game.

Avlis / Copap PW's could be about small furry creatures fighting with candy floss whilst lost in a huge theme park going from stall to stall. To me its all about those involved, players and team members.

Sure NWN2 could be the shitznitzitz visually but if not set up well, any PW no matter how good it looks won't match up. Feck think of the effort thats gone into this place, 1000's upon 1000's of hours. Look at how many team (m)embers have burnt out trying to keep us players happy.

Kudos to old and current team members that made this 'thingy', and moreso that people even feel the need to have this debate.

Yes - community is important, and there wont be many PWs surviving long enough to make the effort of getting involved worth making if the player-base is non-existent or is only interested in running around bashing things (although for those that like that kind of thing...)

But..

The look of the game is important. Why else have people made custom content that adds nothing to the functionality of the game (the whole variety of different clothes, the DLA quiver (my personal favourite), all the different heads etc etc). For the RP orientated, appearance is important not because it is "all shiny and new" but because it increases immersion.

How many people who now play NWN used to play BG I & II? how many of those still play BG either at all or for any appreciable time? I think it will be same with NWN & NWN2, so long as NWN2 is all that NWNs plus more, particularly if the custom-content gnomes jump from NWN to NWN2...

What about Avlis? That will depend entirely on the loyalty of the player -base. Numbers are likely to drop, of both players and team members (both due to natural attrition and jumping to NWN2). The critical period is likely to be 12-15 months after NWN2 is released. I suspect that Avlis will maintain a large-enough base to continue, but events might become more time-zone restricted, some servers might become ghost towns...

*prays to the big pink pixie in the sky*

When NWN2 comes out, please oh please let there be an Avlis PW for it.

Amen.

Gumble Tinkertumble wrote:*prays to the big pink pixie in the sky*

When NWN2 comes out, please oh please let there be an Avlis PW for it.

Amen.

*throws the thread into a vat of holy water, stabs it with several stakes, and shoots silver bullets*

stay dead dagnammit

Gumble Tinkertumble wrote:*prays to the big pink pixie in the sky*

When NWN2 comes out, please oh please let there be an Avlis PW for it.

Amen.

I wouldn't put it past a couple hard-charging Avlis fans to start building a NWN2 Avlis PW world... Especially if Orleron has the waaayyy future Avlis history written.

Well, obviously there are some nice features announced for NWN2 but we still simply need to have a look at it. The community voice seems to be that they would appreciate a move to NWN2 (some people already stated to be prepared to upgrade their machines just to play NWN2).

The amount of work to transfer Avlis/NWN to Avlis/NWN2 will be massive - not to mention the other worlds (coordination will be a nightmare). Nevertheless i personally think that from what i can see NWN2 features are very attractive and tempting.

The only thing that would really allow a proper evaltuation is getting hands on NWN2 and prototype avlis core-features, which are numerous and have grown over years.

So if we seriously consider going in the NWN2 direction we need to identify mandatory features in the current system that we really need (NWNX and stuff like PChests, custom spells?, Psionics, crafting system) just ensure all players can migrate with their favorite kind of character. The minor features list would contain things that are non-blockers like e.g. reduced spell-effects (and more).

The other aspect in a migration would be content. To transfer content will eat a LOT of time. Just because of the different possiblities it could happen that certain locations look totally different.

And last but not least: If a migration will happed there will be a freeze in development on avlis (for obvious reasons).

In the end we just and simply need to wait for NWN2, evaluate the new technology, evaluate the stability (possibly we'd anyway need to wait for some patches) and only then the world leaders can properly decide if it's timeworthy to migrate.

Well, just my 0.02

I think Orleron said somewhere that IF there is any NWN2 Avlis at all, it would be set in a different time, so that you can play, but not your current characters.


Avlis/CoPaP as you know won't migrate to NWN2, that is in all likelyhood all too much work. Catara for instance probably won't.

Most CoPaP world leaders will nonetheless have a good look at NWN2, and if it lives up to the hype, I'll bet a significant amount of money that at least some of them will make NWN2 persistent worlds. Some of these may actually create a (future/past/alternate/simply more fancy) version of the original NWN (classic) world.


Wait and see folks, there isn't any real use of debating this before any of us had a hands-on look at the thing.

Avlis rocks, so I'm happy with NWN 1.

Now, when NWN 3 comes out, then it'll be time to think about upgrading.

Calzier wrote:I suspect that Avlis will maintain a large-enough base to continue, but events might become more time-zone restricted, some servers might become ghost towns...

Aren't some servers ghost towns for a large portion of the day currently?

Runs and hides in Kuras or Deglos

From a personal perspective, its all about the community. I will put money that SOMEONE from the community will whip up a NWN2 world (i.e. Xeo's world: Gravey land), and I will be doing much what Khaelindra said.

Of course, there is always the "wait and see" approach to everything.

You will have players that play for the graphics, neat stuff, and engine switching to NWNII. Anyone here for the RP, the community and the other players will not really have a need to move on, now will they?

I have to agree with some of the points put above; improved mechanics often lead to better immersion.

The look of the game is important. Why else have people made custom content that adds nothing to the functionality of the game (the whole variety of different clothes, the DLA quiver (my personal favourite), all the different heads etc etc).

Calzier put it exactly. To add further, NWN2 will also probably provide more powerful scripting and world developing tools, much better than NWN at the moment; in other words, greater flexibility. Most likely many effects will be much easier to implement while night impossible ones will be doable. While it's true that community, organization, and dedication go a long way, an NWN PW just won't be able to match up to a NWN2 PW with the same amount of dedication and organization in the long run, just due to the sheer amount of flexibility the new system will offer.

Midknight wrote:To add further, NWN2 will also probably provide more powerful scripting and world developing tools, much better than NWN at the moment; in other words, greater flexibility. Most likely many effects will be much easier to implement while night impossible ones will be doable. While it's true that community, organization, and dedication go a long way, an NWN PW just won't be able to match up to a NWN2 PW with the same amount of dedication and organization in the long run, just due to the sheer amount of flexibility the new system will offer.

I can't say I share your optimism. The script engine will get some incremental improvements. Yes parameter passing will be a much welcome improvement, but in the grand scheme of scripting not terribly revolutionary. They'll probably (hopefully) expose more of the internal data structures, but still nothing to make people instantly abandon NWN1. I predict that it'll still be the same old single threaded beast that we have today. The best move that Obsidian can make would be to give us a means to replace or ignore it completely. I'm not so hopeful that they'll be that enlightened.

PlasmaJohn wrote:The script engine will get some incremental improvements. Yes parameter passing will be a much welcome improvement, but in the grand scheme of scripting not terribly revolutionary.

In the grand scheme of relieving annoyances, however, it'll be huge.

If I had to make a Christmas wish-list for things I wish the scripting end of NWN2 included, the top two would be:

1) ARRAYS!!!
2) Being able to pass parameters to scripts called in a conversation.

I could think of many more, but these are the ones that I constantly find myself cursing at the game developers for.

PlasmaJohn wrote: but still nothing to make people instantly abandon NWN1.

Correct, it won't be a "instant" abandonment of NWN1. I'll pre-order mine and install it and play NWN2 and Avlis. But over time, NWN2 PW will appear, and grow, and evolve, much like Avlis did. At some point, I'll start playing that NWN2 PW more and more, and less and less of NWN1 PW, till i abandon NWN1 all together (probably after a system crash where I'll decide not to reinstall NWN1.) I give it 6 to 12 months for quality PW's to appear, IF NWN2 makes it easy to create a PW system.

back to nwn1 vs. 2 eh? well i don't doubt there will be driven devs for #2, but i don't think that's a revelation for anyone.

what i did want to say in favor of nwn1 is... what about the crappy computer people some of us can't even run nwn1 with the sound on, for chrissakes... much less this exponentially juice-requiring nwn2. i love my gaming but every time i look at buying that phat new system i wouldn't mind having, there's like, something else that seems more worthy of spending that money on, or saving it for. people with houses and wives may understand.

so i have been going along with no sound and min. visual settings for like, years now.. having a blast... the reason is, as many have mentioned, that it's not all about the bells and whistles. it's about the adventure. i mean.. the nwn1 orcs look pretty much like orcs, to me. the nwn2 orcs will look better.. but I'm someone who played adventure games where the treasure was a "T" and the monster was an "@", and who played pnp with his friends and our non- or poorly-painted metal group of metal figurines sat on the DM's kitchen table while our minds were on some epic journey of fantasy. the point is, nwn1's bells and whistles are more than enough to stimulate the imagination. and until they get the holodeck invented ( *waits..* ), stimulating the imagination is all it's ever going to be about.

therefore as long as I'm having fun and there are friends to make and greet on nwn1, i don't see any reason why i would need to upgrade.



*imitates Tommy Chong* "it's all a conspiracy man... they're always tryin to come up with.. with... with new ways to get you away from your money, man..."

Tigg wrote: therefore as long as I'm having fun and there are friends to make and greet on nwn1, i don't see any reason why i would need to upgrade.

thats the key, over time you'll have less and less friends to make w/ NWN1.

Tigg wrote:what i did want to say in favor of nwn1 is... what about the crappy computer people some of us can't even run nwn1 with the sound on, for chrissakes...

It took me 2 years from the release of NWN to get a machine that would run it...so I doubt I'll even buy NWN2 until 12 months after its release (earliest I can see upgrading)...so folks like me will continue to be in the same boat...
...but then after a year the mods, custom content and PWs shoul be developed enough to make the switch, that's why I think the big jump away from NWN1 (if it happens) will be after the first year or so.

drunkenpig wrote:

Tigg wrote: therefore as long as I'm having fun and there are friends to make and greet on nwn1, i don't see any reason why i would need to upgrade.

thats the key, over time you'll have less and less friends to make w/ NWN1.

*takes back his quote, and scribbles around on it*

Tigg wrote: therefore as long as I'm having fun and there are friends to make and greet on nwn1, i don't see any reason why i would need to upgrade.

heh

KaiRal Windspar wrote:NWN is a home client run game. It will not be impossible to run without Gamespy when they go under, but so long as other games run on Gamespy, they have no reason to shut their doors or stop supporting any game. You can still set up an online Baldurs Gate game through them.

Yeah... they said we couldn't use NWN to create a Persistent World too. They also said that we couldn't use an external database with NWN.

It doesn't matter what happens to anything regarding NWN... we can hack around it if we need to.

Czarcasm wrote:

Gumble Tinkertumble wrote:*prays to the big pink pixie in the sky*

When NWN2 comes out, please oh please let there be an Avlis PW for it.

Amen.

I wouldn't put it past a couple hard-charging Avlis fans to start building a NWN2 Avlis PW world... Especially if Orleron has the waaayyy future Avlis history written.

I hate this idea. It makes everything going on now seem... predestined.