The World of Avlis

When Nwn 2 comes out with the Dms be using updated crafts, weapons.


Basically will they be using the new features?

Slane Swift wrote:When Nwn 2 comes out with the Dms be using updated crafts, weapons.


Basically will they be using the new features?

NWN 2 will not be backwardly compatable with NWN. I recall some discussion that they may include some features to be able to pull things, like areas or items into NWN2 from NWN1, but not the other way around. So the answer is, "no." There have been a couple of discussions on this on the boards. For more info, try the search feature.

Neverwinter Nights 2 isn't an expansion, it's a different game.

Slane Swift wrote:When Nwn 2 comes out with the Dms be using updated crafts, weapons.


Basically will they be using the new features?

Congratulations, you have started the 100th NWN 2 thread! You win a gold piece. See me in game for your gold piece.

apandapion wrote:

Slane Swift wrote:When Nwn 2 comes out with the Dms be using updated crafts, weapons.


Basically will they be using the new features?

Congratulations, you have started the 100th NWN 2 thread! You win a gold piece. See me in game for your gold piece.

dang. I want a gold piece. Slane. from now on when you have a question just ask me before you post it.

As has been said: NWN2 is a completely different game. The concept is the same, but it has a different engine that will not allow us to simply press a button and run our current modules in a newer fancier jacket. In order to run Avlis in NWN2 we will have to build new modules from scratch.

Will we do that? Maybe. Once more definite details of NWN2 are released we'll evaluate and see if it fits the bill and if we have the manpower and willpower to restart building from the bottom up.

A chance to rebuild and iron out all errors made initially... *grin*

Starslayer_D wrote:A chance to rebuild and iron out all errors made initially... *grin*

When you build a 100% perfect world, you just let us know

I did read that a few aspects like scripts or conversations might be re-useable though which could cut down on development time a lot.

I spent some (read: way too much) time reading thru the NWN2 FAQ and it sounds like their ripping out the rendering engine and doing a wholesale replacement. The other rip-up-and-reroute is the toolset (non modal, area views are now tabbed). The scripting language gets some incremental fixes like call parameters (yay! no more 300 scripts per dialog).

But it sounds like the single-threaded script VM remains. That's bad. Consider that by the time this game sees the light of day, 64 bit 4 CPU machines will cost in the neighborhood of US$2000 or less. That may sound like a lot of money, but in the world of MMORPG's that's frog piss. That kind of hardware should support 2-500 concurrent users with no lag at all.

Without reengineering their VM, unless the graphics are some new kind of wonderful, I doubt that's the direction we'll head.

That raises me a question... Why do we use NWN anyway? I know it's the easier way to build a world.. But Avlis (and CoPaP) is growing.. Is there any plans to make a MMORPG for it? And get rid of all those legal bounds that don't allow some extra features (and the hard coded stuff also).

I'll explain it better. I see some good points in NWN:
- I like the idea of having a game that you could play for free (unlike some MMORPGs). It brings much more players to the community (and developers, DMs, etc), and since you only have to pay once for it, it's much easier to keep playing when you cannot find time to play. (Not that I'm planning to stop my monthly donation, but some people don't feel the same way.)
- It has great graphycs, an excelent engine (compared to others), a good rule system (D20), and a vast player base already.
- It's ready and easy to use, and easy to adapt to what you need (not always).

But I would also like to see things it doesn't allow us:
- Paying to create special (named) items, with personal story. Nothing about power, but prestige.
- Paying to build player houses other than a standard one (there should be one for free, playing only game money for it).
- Ability to create new classes and races without having to use tricks to make them work (like the feats for psions, racial hides, using outsider or animal class to make ECLs, the character customizer, etc).

So... Would CoPaP considering:
- Building its own game?
- Making a special contract with Bioware to allow more things?

Remember that:
- NWN is not forever, and if Bioware is moving on (with NWN2 and Dragon Ages), we might find ourselves as the last standing server of NWN 1 one day. It's better to start planning now, when we have time.
- D20 is not owned by Bioware, and WotC made it free to use (only the stories are forbidden). Mystara, Forgotten Realms and some others may have a problem... But Avlis is not WotC (or Bioware) creation. And a lot of CoPaP worlds are like that.

Just something to think about.. Maybe I should post it in CoPaP and not here... But it's here anyway.

Drysh wrote:That raises me a question... Why do we use NWN anyway? I know it's the easier way to build a world.. But Avlis (and CoPaP) is growing.. Is there any plans to make a MMORPG for it? And get rid of all those legal bounds that don't allow some extra features (and the hard coded stuff also).

That's something the Avlis Team kicks around every now and then. I think several of us would love to see this happen, but it's frankly a very serious endeavor, with a lot of difficulties and pitfalls. We have some great coders and game developers, but we remain pretty short in the art and animation areas, which are crucially important to a game's success. We also lack the single most important ingredient: funding. Building an MMORPG costs between about 2 and 7 million dollars, on average. We can lower that substantially by using volunteer labor as much as possible, but still... it costs a lot of money to manifest these dreams.

It might yet happen though, we'll see.

- Aloro

- Paying to create special (named) items, with personal story. Nothing about power, but prestige.
- Paying to build player houses other than a standard one (there should be one for free, playing only game money for it).

The problem with many (most?) MMORPG's is that things like this is possible. While the two points doesn't sound all that bad, it'd be far too tempting to increaase the number of things you could buy, in order to get more money for world developing. And it would show a great many of the players out in the cold, as they can't afford to spend lot of RL money on such things; in effect they would be regarded as second-rate players no matter their IC-performance. In the end, you could risk having to give up on any form of donations (work inkluding) from the vast majority of players since they would assume that you earned enough money selling stuff to place IG.

Personalised items as a revard for those who donates a lot, would be more acceptable, I think. But, again, great care should be taken not to create a lower class of players for reasons outside of the game.

Istahire wrote:Personalised items as a revard for those who donates a lot, would be more acceptable, I think.

The NWN license prohibits even this.

Drysh wrote:- NWN is not forever, and if Bioware is moving on (with NWN2 and Dragon Ages), we might find ourselves as the last standing server of NWN 1 one day. It's better to start planning now, when we have time.

If we still had the playerbase and enough donations to cover the electricity, bandwidth and replacement hardware, who cares? Those that can't stand the lack of technology progression will eventually move on.

- D20 is not owned by Bioware, and WotC made it free to use (only the stories are forbidden).

Last I checked D20 is not licensed for electronic implementation only PnP. I also seem to remember that Infogrames' contract grants them exclusivity here as well.

Regardless, rulesets simply aren't the problem, that's a couple weeks worth of time, tops. As Aloro pointed out, art is the big gotcha, especially dynamic models.

Damn WotC.. Confusing license.. The OGL (open game) allows you to make a computer game, but the D20 license doesn't... But D20 is an OGL... You may change it and make a game... But if you don't change anything... You can still make a game, as long as you don't say its D20.. It's OGL. ... I cannot belive they closed the dice rolling! You may make a skill check in a computer game, using the OGL... As long as that skill check doesn't include rolling a d20 and comparing with the value of your skill... I'm having a headache!

PlasmaJohn wrote:

Drysh wrote:- NWN is not forever, and if Bioware is moving on (with NWN2 and Dragon Ages), we might find ourselves as the last standing server of NWN 1 one day. It's better to start planning now, when we have time.

If we still had the playerbase and enough donations to cover the electricity, bandwidth and replacement hardware, who cares? Those that can't stand the lack of technology progression will eventually move on.

I care!

Avlis (and CoPaP) is a unique experience! In the last few years I saw only a few things changing in RPG (and I took a long time to notice them):

- The OGL, that allowed the creative DMs to publish their worlds. Finally the system and the game are not the same thing! The game is something that uses d20, only that... Even if you had to buy the rules... Now you don't have to buy the game from the same company. That was what made me think they (WotC) are not that evil... And I gave the 3rd ed a chance.

- NWN, this insane BioWare's creation that put the power to make games in the hands of those who don't even know how to code. I could not believe when I saw it... Not a single line of code? And we may make a new game with new dialogs? Huh? New creatures too? Only editing their statistics? Insane.. I have no other word to describe it.. Maybe impossible.

- Avlis, a new standard of RPing online. For the first time in my life, I am bringing computer RPG experiences to the PnP. Not the other way around!!! Avlis made it possible to RP things I could not in PnP (crafting is only one of them). Some friends are using the net now to enhance PnP games. Example: a store and workshop in a forum to allow players to buy equipment before the adventure, saving time to play when the players are together (and a wizard that researches using that same forum). It came from what we saw here.

- CoPaP! Greater than Avlis, than NWN, than D20, and more than all these worlds together! Only a small child by now... But it's growing. A democracy of games! Build your world, vote for the rules with thousands (I dare to dream) of other game makers around. And find how to make your individual RPG part of a greater world! After the death of Plannescape (Maybe not death.. Coma) this is the best thing I've heard. Now I can finally make that store of elven steel goods in Krin. And discuss theory of magic with a preserver, a wild mage, a white mage from Dragonlance (damn.. I don't remember the name.. Those that are affected by the moon), a speacilist Red Wizard of Thay, a chronomancer, a demonologist from the Blood War... *starts imaginning that room filled with different mages* Oh.. And a member of the Trust of Andrinor too.

The reason I even started looking for something like Avlis and COPAP was because it is not pay-to-play. I can't cost-justify a monthly fee for a computer game. Then I would have to play to get my money's worth, not just for the enjoyment.

[quote="Drysh"]Damn WotC.. Confusing license.. The OGL (open game) allows you to make a computer game, but the D20 license doesn't... But D20 is an OGL... You may change it and make a game... But if you don't change anything... You can still make a game, as long as you don't say its D20.. It's OGL. ... I cannot belive they closed the dice rolling! You may make a skill check in a computer game, using the OGL... As long as that skill check doesn't include rolling a d20 and comparing with the value of your skill... I'm having a headache!

boy, i'm glad you guys understand this stuff, because i have no idea what the hell is going on with bioware and woc. all i know is i must be a damn commie, 'cause these guys are capitalist pigs......

which reminds me, i should buy some avlis stuff soon. i'm new here and YOU ALL DO AN AWESOME JOB (this goes out to players too). and this is about the damndest chat room around.