The World of Avlis

Alright, my character is Wiz 8, Fighter 2, Pale Master 10. I was just levelling up to level 21, pale master 11. I intended to take Epic Spell Focus: Necromancy, but the option wasn't there. I have Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy, and the only other requirement listed is being level 21. Oddly, even the regular Spell Focus feat wasn't available.

Anyone know what the issue is?

I used a levelling mod to check this out. Epic Spell Focus wasn't available until I could cast ninth level spells (which, for this character, will be level 27). OUCH.

Is it supposed to be that way?

Also, since I wasn't prepared for this, I haven't considered any other feats. Is it worthwhile to take Epic Spell Penetration?

Epic spell penetration is handy for taking down monks with SR

Doesn't your character wade in to the thick of battle every so often? Maybe Armor Skin would be useful? How about Great Intelligence?

In addition to penetrating monks, it's useful for greater demons and the like.

Well, if I recall Pale masters only get 1/2 their level counted as caster level. So spell penetration will help you alot. Check to pass SR is 1d20+ Caster lvl. So if you go rest of the way with Pale master, anything with higher than SR 43 will be impossible for you to beat if no penetration feat are taken.

Can you take epic spell penetration without having the lower ones as well?

Options: Great Int., Armor Skin, ESP, Epic Toughness, Improved Combat Casting.

Great Int. almost seems like something to pick if nothing else seems right.

Pale Master gets +2 AC every 4 levels, so Armor Skin might be less necessary (or, alternatively, would help him to have an even better AC).

Epic Spell Penetration helps against creatures with a high SR, but that's it. And how common is that anyway? If I come across something with high SR, is an extra +2 to my spell penetration really going to help much?

Improved Combat Casting - sucks to be surrounded in battle and then interrupted while casting tensers or something (or, worse, improved invis., if I'm trying to escape). ICC could help with that.

Epic toughness - pretty self-explanatory.

Or, I don't even really need to take an epic feat. I could take Empower Spell (so far, the only metamagic I have is still and extend).

Any more thoughts? (Really wants epic spell focus still )

Jorik Ambrose wrote:Can you take epic spell penetration without having the lower ones as well?

No, but I do have them.

Also, I can't take ICC until I have a concentration of 25 (so, it could be my level 23 feat when I get around to that) - still curious what people think about that feat, though.

There are also the Epic Energy Resistance Feats...so many options...

I think ICC is a great feat, and it especially fits those characters who would be in the midst of melee and have to cast spells. I think Armor skin would be unnecessary for a PM, there will come a point where most things only hit you at a 20, in which case more AC doesn't help.

Unfortunately, that doesn't leave you many choices. I'd say Great INT, it doesn't look like you have many other choices.

Take what fits your character. Armor skin is great if you're tanking a lot. It will save your ass against epic enemies. A pale master is really the only class on Avlis that can get a high enough AC to tank epic fighters without being hit. This is the route I took since Dala is more of a battlemage than a spell mage, and it has proven quite useful in certain dungeons (and in CvC).

If this isn't a good fit for your character, then go with a spell-based feat. Greater spell penetration is a must for pale masters due to decreased caster level. I don't have this, and I find my spells fizzling against a lot of foes. So much so that I don't take a lot of offensive magic. Great Int is also a nice one, since bonus int will get you extra spells, DC, and skill points (and pale masters have some nice skills).

All the options listed fit my character (there are other feats he could take, but I didn't list those, since they don't fit my character). Sinomi is a bit of a battlemage..."steelcasting" in particular, but doesn't engage that way ALL the time. Kind of in-between, really.

As for AC, if he really needs it, he's got improved expertise. Of course, then he can't hit a barn.

As for Great Int., it takes 2 Int (he's even right now) to get any benefits from it.

As for ESP, I don't engage in CvC much. Haven't seen my spells resisted too often by monsters...though, things go so fast in the combat window that I often miss stuff like that.

Would I be nuts to take Empower Spell, using an epic feat for that? I could empower Bull's Str. and Endurance. That could be pretty useful.

So indecisive...I usually think about these things for months...this really threw me off.

szabot wrote:Or, I don't even really need to take an epic feat. I could take Empower Spell (so far, the only metamagic I have is still and extend).

Dralix would hate life without empower spell.

Dralix wrote:

szabot wrote:Or, I don't even really need to take an epic feat. I could take Empower Spell (so far, the only metamagic I have is still and extend).

Dralix would hate life without empower spell.

I'm honestly leaning toward that right now. Great Int. would be good if I'd get some benefit from it, but I won't until I get another point in Int at level 24.

ESP doesn't seem like it'd be useful very often, and anything whose SR I can't beat right now, I don't think I'll be able to beat with an extra +2 to SP.

Armor Skin might be nice...but I can't talk myself into it since I get +2 AC every 4 levels anyway with Bone Skin.

ICC...fully buffed and steelcasting (so, if I really want to crank up the AC), I rarely get hit anway. I think my AC can get up to 53 (edit: er, 43? I'm tired. ) right now (before using any expertise - so that'd be my casting AC). So, I don't get hit often. On the rare times I do, I have a high concentration skill, so I don't really get interrupted very often anway.

Epic Toughness and Energy Resistance are nice, but don't seem as good as other options.


(Oh, I just became a "sage" - nice day for me )

Dralix wrote:

szabot wrote:Or, I don't even really need to take an epic feat. I could take Empower Spell (so far, the only metamagic I have is still and extend).

Dralix would hate life without empower spell.

Oh come on, Dralix hates life already


I would recommend Empower or Great Int. Empower is very useful, it makes your spellbook much more flexible. Great Int = higher DC on spells and more spells to cast, albeit the increase is slow.

I meant unlife, not life.

My character can go pure mage, pure steelcaster or somewhere inbetween. I like the flexibility. Empower spells does increase his flexibility. I also tend to like feats that increase fun. Armor skin, ESP, Epic toughness...feats like that just work after you choose them - they don't increase your options, require you to do anything...not as fun (unless they happen to be saving your life! ). Hm...looking more and more like I should take empower...never thought I'd use an epic feat choice for a non-epic feat.

Since my level 23 feat will be an epic pale master bonus feat, but I can't yet take auto-still or epic spells, it will have to be ESP or ICC (or epic resistance). At level 26 and up, I'll take epic mage armor, auto-stills, and, likely, epic spell focus. So, that leaves 2 feats for empower, armor skin, great int., or whichever of ESP or ICC I don't take earlier. If some have to go, I think maybe it should be armor skin and ESP/ICC. Also, empower is more useful now than great int. So...I'm going with empower.

Last chance to give your opinions. And thanks for the help!

szabot wrote:As for Great Int., it takes 2 Int (he's even right now) to get any benefits from it.

If he routinely fox's cunnings himself, a single point gives an extra +1 DC etc half the time...

Plus, you do get the points one at a time (except at level 24) - if you never get to an odd value, you'll never improve the stat at all...

Epic Spell Penetration helps against creatures with a high SR, but that's it. And how common is that anyway? If I come across something with high SR, is an extra +2 to my spell penetration really going to help much?

If you think about it in terms of percentages, +2 on a d20 is actually +10%.... but only if the SR is actually beatable. Still, I would recommend empower or Armor Skin (+2 is likewise a 10% boost), maybe even quicken spell.

Epic Toughness is ok, but the regular Toughness is a much better long term boost. +20 HP is rather marginal, considering what you face at epic levels. Epic Energy Resistance is better, but as the feat implies, rather limited in scope. Still, useful for battling other magic users (I would suggest lightning, as chain lightning is an often used weapon in spell battles, I find.)

There are not really enough mage feats to go for both epic spell penetration and epic spell focus. So is it better to go for epic spell focus in somthing like evocation or epic spell penetration.

cpampine wrote:In addition to penetrating monks

Could you...uh...rephrase that please?

If you are steelcasting often, consider the auto-still spell range of feats.

Effie is with Dralix - empowered chain lightening mmm mmm, one of the most powerful spells you could ever know.