Aloro wrote:Clerics don't generally put any points into Spot. They only have 2 skill points per level, and these generally go into Concentration, Heal, and Spellcraft. Hey, that's 3 skills, and only 2 skill points... not much leftover there.
No caster I know of uses items to boost their Spot.
Almost every stealthy rogue I know has multiple pieces of Hide gear. No, sorry, make that EVERY stealthy rogue I know.
High Dex rogues are likely to favor clothing over armor anyhow, so they can use their full Dex bonus. How is wearing clothing to boost their Hide skill a significant penalty? Clerics are likely to wear Periapts of Wisdom (for more spells and a higher spell DC). They're incredibly unlikely to wear an Amulet of Light. So this item for rogues is commonly used because it gives an advantage and costs little to no mechanical power loss, while the item for clerics is unlikely to ever be worn because it causes direct mechanical power loss in their area of greatest focus. Moreover, switching out a Periapt of Wisdom causes the bonus spells to be forgotten and removed from your spell lists, so clerics would never swap such items in and out.
If we're going to compare only the worst-case scenarios (casters with skill points they're not likely to spend and gear they're not likely to own), I think we get a skewed view of how True Seeing and Hide interact.
How about a real-life example comparing a 21st level cleric and 20th level rogue/shadowdancer?
Cha'reth's Spot has never been above +53. Val's Hide can get up to +68 with the equipment he has now (you didn't mention Camoflauge
). With Epic Skill Focus, Val's Hide might shortly be +79.
Sure, this is a top-end comparison, but it's at least a realistic one, based on actual existing characters, their current equipment, and their development plans.
- Aloro
So you're saying clerics should be able to do everything?
The advantage of rogues is that they get LOADS of skill points. Clerics theoretically can boost things temporarily, but not permanantly. If the turns VS hours in NWN was correct, true seeing cast by a level 20 character would last 3 hours, 20 minutes, which, in real time, is 6 minutes 40 seconds. This is balance. However, right now it lasts 20 minutes - longer than between rest periods.
Giving clerics an obscene bonus to spot gives them essentially an extra 2 skill points a level, which is kinda stupid.
You want to be good at spotting, then devote skill points to it. What? You mean you can't take every skill and feat you'd like at once? Every other class suffers the same limitations, and has to choose to make sacrifices. Sh'lieulias puts some skill points in tumble, which means he isn't as good at some other things as he could be (though it isn't that much of a problem with him). Sure, I'd like Vence to be a specialist in the Greatsword and the Longbow as well as the bastard sword, but I don't have that many feat slots.
Arguing that an inherent disadvantage of a class is wrong is a bit rediculous.
On the flipside, as Keikobad said, in NWN hiding is much easier than it should be. You can hide in certain rediculous situations.
However, it should be rogues and rangers who are good at sniffing out hiders, NOT clerics. You could argue that NWN is weak on divination spells, and I think that some should be added. However, diviniation spells usually can't find people perfectally, and the ones that do take away your concentration from the real world and are high level, and last for a very short period of time, not effectively permanently.
Per CoPaP rules, things better than +1 enhancement should not be buyable. For skills, that is multiplied by 3, to +3. If this was followed, then it wouldn't matter quite so much.
I do think there should be a few items that boost spot/listen (not many, but a few). There already are, really; however, there are far more hide/move silently bonus items, and they are worlds better. A person who devotes a great deal to spot/listen should have a reasonable chance to spot someone who devotes the same amount to hide/move silently, and should have realtively equivalent aiding equipment. There might be a few more hide/MS bonus items (boots & armor aiding move silently, armor & cloak for hide, versus just helmets for spot/listen), which gives a slight advantage to the stealth character.
Basically, what I see here is this:
Clerics: We should be able to see anything!
Rogues/Rangers: Why the heck can you see us? Why do you get to trump our main advantage?
That is essentially the argument I see here, and EVERY time this debate is rehashed. Those with TS defend it; those who lose out from it attack it. Its kinda stupid really.
I'd rather have immunity:illusions than +40 spot anyway, and that is more what it should be like. +40 spot you can claim doesn't make that much of a difference... but lets face it. You're a level 20 cleric, put NOTHING into spot, and you can spot any rogue without really uber equipment.
Lets look at a level 10 example.
Sample rogue with CoPaP standard equipment, level 10:
13 + 4 (skill focus) + 3 (armor with hide bonus) + 3 (cloak with hide bonus) + 5 (dex bonus) = 28 hide/move silently
Level 10 cleric with CoPaP standard equipment and true seeing, level 10:
20 (true seeing) + 6 (wis bonus with owl's wisdom) + 3 (helmet of spot bonus) + 3 (amulet that gives spot bonus) = 32 spot/listen
Even with a potion of camoflauge (which costs the rogue money and only lasts for a very short time (less than true seeing), the rogue only is winning out by 7. The rogue has devoted a feat and skill points to it, but the cleric will normally beat them by 4; that means that the rogue has about a 6 in 20 chance of beating the cleric on hide per round, or 3 in 10 - 30% chance in the first 6 seconds. Chance of lasting two rounds: 9%. Chance of not being seen for 3 rounds: 2.7%. The chance of you not being spotted within 30 seconds is 1%. Even with a potion of camoflauage and of cat's grace, the rogue would be beating the cleric by 7, so there is only a 4 in 20 chance that the cleric will spot them (roughly). Thus, a 20% chance per round, or an 80% chance of not being spotted. Second round, 64% chance rogue is still in the clear. Third round: 51.2%. Fourth: 41.9%. Fifth: 32.8%, or less than 1 in 3 chance. It cost the rogue 500 gold to have a 1 in 3 chance not to be spotted in the first 5 rounds.
Now, lets say the cleric has NO spot boosting equipment at all. This would drop their skill to 26. A rogue who spends 300 gold on a potion could sneak by the cleric, once. That seems reasonable to me. However, a rogue/ranger would actually be worse at spotting than the cleric! And given that spellcasters who can cast true seeing keep it up 24/7 (at least in my experience; I stand talking to them, and in the middle of a conversation they'll cast the spell again, sometimes twice if the conversation is long enough) the rogues/rangers are losing out on class skills to clerics, sorcerers, and wizards. Why take a rogue or ranger along when you can already do it all with a cleric?
Already clerics trump fighters at fighting. Do they really need to be the best class at everything possible?
This is coming from the player of Vence, a fighter, and Sh'lieulias, a wizard. Is it stupid that I am complaining? Probably, as it is most likely that no one cares. But I do see it as a bit silly.
EDIT: Bear posted, and I think my above post may be a little harsh. But I hope I'm getting my point across. I don't think that clerics (and wizards, and sorcerers) should be able to automatically trump the hide skill, as really, it should be their main weakness. Attack one without that, and chances are you will be pounded. But attacking a wizard, cleric, or sorcerer in an ambush is the way you are supposed to be able to win. And that just can't happen when they pretty much always spot you with no expenditure of skill points or feats, while the rogues are maxing them out and taking all the equipment they can.
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