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animating undead - mechanics
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2003 1:14 am
by GreyLynx
There's an interesting debate in the IC forums regarding the status of summons/animates that mages call up. One point of contention was the mechanism of undead animation. Specifcally, is there any portion of the original person's soul involved during the animation of their corpse? Or in Avlis are corpses simply animated using negative plane energy? Or some other mechanism?
Thanks.
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2003 2:39 pm
by Orleron
Corpses are animated using negative plane energy and the soul is gone.
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2003 2:45 pm
by KinX
heh, well that clarifies a few things. I always thought there was a soul involved somehow. When it comes to Avlis, i guess i'm wrong.
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2003 4:56 pm
by Orleron
Pretty much any D&D source will tell you that animated corpses have no souls. All mindless undead are souless for the most part. It's the vampires and liches and other intelligent undead that have the souls. I thought it was fairly clear to anyone who played D&D.
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2003 8:17 pm
by Vanor
Orleron wrote:Pretty much any D&D source will tell you that animated corpses have no souls. All mindless undead are souless for the most part.
A lot of people seem to think that an animated dead somehow has the soul that once inhabited the body trapped there.
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2003 8:26 pm
by Nightface
Always seemed to me that the biggest beef with undead was the fact that is was a mockery of life, which can really bother some people and wouldn't faze others. For most, though, it would just be really creepy!
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2003 8:41 pm
by WrathOG777
Just like to point out he said mindless too. Thus with no will of their own, they realy have no alignement. Summoned undead are mearly extentions of the will of the creator. Not much different the a flesh golem.
The way I see it, the majority of folks that use undead are the same people that heal and protect the common man. Just like the white necromancers spoken of. These undead protect and serve.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but I fall in that 'wouldn't faze others' category.
Now, nymphs, those are scary. That circle of death thing they run around with *shivers*
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2003 8:41 pm
by izyk
Not to mention...whose corpse is that who just got re-animated anyway? My mothers? My friends, ex-lovers? The guy who used to live next door?
It does'nt need a soul to be offensive.
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2003 8:52 pm
by Jordicus
i think that is part of the problem. I posted about this in the mage forum as well.
NWN makes it too easy to forget that the whole Animate Dead spell requires a time consuming ritual and an actual corpse to be able to perform the ritual on. Most of the other summoning spells involve other rituals as well. Now, we are limited in the NWN engine as to what we can and cannot reasonably do, but that doesn't mean we forget the rules that the game is doing its best to adhere to.
It's one thing to walk through the city proper with some skeleton following after you. But does anyone really think that people would not object if you dragged out a corpse into the middle of the marketplace and started performing arcane rituals on it?
There has to be a balance between the ease of the gameplay and the realsim that we try to maintain.. (Not that there is much realism involved with animating skeletons, but you know what I mean)
Just my 2 cents
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2003 9:55 pm
by Hylia
What about skeleton warriors? As far as I remember from 2nd Ed, these things used to have souls bound up in "control circlets" so that whoever had brought them to life could exert control.
If course, as far as I can tell there is no skeleton warrior yet in official 3rd. Edition sources, and NWN makes these things similar-to yet not-quite-like the 2nd ed. skeleton warriors. Any official position on souls in these things?
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2003 9:58 pm
by Vanor
Hylia wrote:What about skeleton warriors?
Those were a special form of undead, and don't exist in 3e or Avlis I imagane. If however they did, then yes they would involve a trapped soul.
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2003 11:12 pm
by GreyLynx
I'd agree with the 3e interpretation on skeletons and zombies. The flip-side is that most D&D sources say that animation of undead is an evil act (don't know about 3e). I'm sure part of the confusion regarding whether animate dead traps a soul came from the NWN module itself, where the creepy dwarf monk (can't remember his name) talks at length in his dialogs about the soul of the person whose corpse becomes a zombie or skeleton. According to the dwarf's philosophy, for even a body animated to a skeleton or zombie, the soul is trapped eternally unless ritually purified. That definitely would put a damper on using those types of spells. But the no-soul mechanism makes this spell much more usable. Thanks for the clarification.
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2003 7:56 pm
by Jorio Alerian
Jordicus wrote:i think that is part of the problem. I posted about this in the mage forum as well.
NWN makes it too easy to forget that the whole Animate Dead spell requires a time consuming ritual and an actual corpse to be able to perform the ritual on. Most of the other summoning spells involve other rituals as well. Now, we are limited in the NWN engine as to what we can and cannot reasonably do, but that doesn't mean we forget the rules that the game is doing its best to adhere to.
It's one thing to walk through the city proper with some skeleton following after you. But does anyone really think that people would not object if you dragged out a corpse into the middle of the marketplace and started performing arcane rituals on it?
There has to be a balance between the ease of the gameplay and the realsim that we try to maintain.. (Not that there is much realism involved with animating skeletons, but you know what I mean)
Just my 2 cents
I really think you are on to something here Jordicus. I wouldn't mind this specific point you are making to even be debated in another post.
This line of reasoning could really take off on the RP aspect of summoning- especially the undead.
Jorio
Posted: Thu May 01, 2003 1:29 am
by jadeia
Remember we play NWN, not 3e.
Unless the team puts a "hak" into place, to simulate in NWN something in 3e, then don't use your 3e books as the bible.
This is not critism, just that I can see a potential for debate on a subject that shouldnt be.
Debate it as something you'd like to see in NWN, for sure.
Dont debate it as something you wont to enforce in NWN, that would be cheesy.
And yes Lanessa has a soul, so bite me
Posted: Thu May 01, 2003 2:15 am
by Jordicus
I don't think the idea I have been toying with is about forcing us to change the way the game works. I was just thinking more along the lines of using these idea as tools for RP.
Consider thes two examples.
1) Johny B Wizard is walking outside of Mikona. He decides that he needs to have a skeleton as a companion. There is a momentary pause and then (cue spell) you see him wave his arms and say something and presto, a skeleton appears.
2) Milamber, a mage, is walking outside of Mikona. Something causes him to pause and consider something. He stops and moves over to the side of the road. *Milamber leans down and drops a skeleton knuckle on the ground* *He inscribes an arcane symbol in the dirt around the knuckle* After a momentary pause, Milamber concentrates for a moment and then starts an incantation. (cue spell). A skeleton appears to do his bidding.
I am just trying to create examples here, so I am sure they both have lots of shortcomings. But just a concept to make you consider some options. My mage is my least played character, but I am trying to do similar things with my cleric and his prayers and devotions.
Posted: Thu May 01, 2003 2:33 am
by jadeia
@Jordicus
I agree some emotes are nice, and some players (Amonien for one) do this all the time.
But be careful not to suggest that people can not cast a spell because he has not done the right emote, or is in the wrong place.
It disgusts me personally, to wacth people cast Call Lighting indoors, or to summon balors with ease, but there is Jack I can do about it, because THAT is NWN, and that is our world.
In my PnP campaign, ALL summons had a ritual, harder than the books even said, and we had custom rules for almost everything.
I agree with you in theory, but we have to, at the end of the day, stick with NWN.
Of course, unless the team decides to make a hak or custom script, like we have on many occasions.
Posted: Thu May 01, 2003 4:38 am
by Jorio Alerian
My point is this. If summoning undead needs a corpse, then my LG character has a right to ask you about where you got one to raise your undead creature.
There are many things we emote on because the game mechanics dont necessarily make it work right. Knowing how and why certain things are done the way they are offers characters a chance to role play out the event to a much greater degree.
For instance, if summoning a balor opened a portal in which other demons could pass through involuntary, as a protector of the people you would want that activity to be controlled or limited.
Just a thought.
Posted: Thu May 01, 2003 4:47 am
by jadeia
@Jorio
Personally I agree.
But technically, the person you "demanded" information about the "corpse" from, could send you a TELL asking you to quietly mind your business.
Because this is NWN, and NWN doesnt require a corpse, they are not commiting any moral crime in the eyes of NWN, and you cant really force them to accept this.
Just be careful, some people will RP along with it, and some will be offended. You know how some people are automatically 200% more defiant when anyone from the OoG asks them a question
heh. I dont want to see the OoG persecuting anyone for using a NWN spell that is considered an unlawful act because of true 3e rules.
Its just not fair. Its not PnP. I wish it were. If it were, just about all mages would have trouble in Mikona. In fact, in my own PnP world, mages are always looked at as being trouble.
But there are way to many mages in Avlis to even try to do this.
Lets give them a break. lol
Posted: Thu May 01, 2003 5:41 am
by Strangg
Animate undead, corpse or no, is still an affront to the natural order and should upset people regardless of its need for a corpse or not. It is one of the few spells listed in the "evil" domain (as well as necromancy) there will be few if any good RP reasons for a good aligned character to use such a spell.
~S
Posted: Thu May 01, 2003 5:49 am
by jadeia
Great, we have this in 3 threads now.
Agreed.
I'm concerned about seeing people go on a crusade, asking people to produce corpses, and having to smite them for having dug up some corpse to cast a spell, thats all.
Yes it's evil, that's fine. People can RP of that, assuming they see the summoner cast the spell in the first place.
What is being sugesting, is that when someone see's someone with a zombie in tow, he is going to demand that they explain why the dug up someones corpse to create a zombie, that they are evil beyond reproach, and smite them where they stand.
Thats ok in PnP (maybe) but not Avlis. We dont have a corpse rule... so... pft!
Of course, he can ask them to get rid of the corpse because it affronts his beleifs, what ever, I hope he gets his arse handed to him one day for doign that, but thats fine in Avlis.
Mages have it tough enough with these laws about summons. I wont stand for 3e rules being used to dictate even more no-no's to mages. Not unless we ever bring spell components into the game - which would be a whole new matter itself.
Posted: Thu May 01, 2003 5:49 am
by jadeia
And necromancy is not evil.
Everytime a do gooder casts HEAL he is using necromancy, so pft again
Posted: Thu May 01, 2003 12:33 pm
by Jordicus
There was a post in one of the other threads that pointed out that all healing spells are not necromancy but are conjuration.
BTW, here is a quote from
http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html
Cure Minor Wounds
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 0, Drd 0
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will half (harmless) (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless
When laying the character's hand upon a living creature, the character channels positive energy that cures 1 point of damage.
Since undead are powered by negative energy, this spell deals damage to them instead of curing their wounds. An undead creature can attempt a Will save to take half damage.
I think this is important to clarify, because many other players are starting to state that healing is necromatic as well..
Posted: Thu May 01, 2003 1:25 pm
by Jorio Alerian
Alright.
Based upon the answers I received both IC and OOC, the corpse thing is now moot- there will be no show me your shovel issues from the OoG.
But we now have differing opinions on necromancy spells and the evil nature regarding SOME of them- specifically animating undead.
There has and will be heated debates on this, so I really would like as much input on this issue as possible. I'd like to hear more opinions on this please.
BTW- my idea is not to make things hard for mages (like they have it hard now), but to better understand and be intouch with the forces around my character so he pleases his god even more.
Jorio
Strangg wrote:Animate undead, corpse or no, is still an affront to the natural order and should upset people regardless of its need for a corpse or not. It is one of the few spells listed in the "evil" domain (as well as necromancy) there will be few if any good RP reasons for a good aligned character to use such a spell.
~S
jadeia wrote:And necromancy is not evil.
Everytime a do gooder casts HEAL he is using necromancy, so pft again
Posted: Thu May 01, 2003 1:26 pm
by Glocknal
jadeia wrote:
Mages have it tough enough with these laws about summons. I wont stand for 3e rules being used to dictate even more no-no's to mages. Not unless we ever bring spell components into the game - which would be a whole new matter itself.
Ok Jad i have to respectfully disagree with you here. Im not gonna talk about summons, I am never gonna debate that again.
Mages do not have it tough. No Way. Nope. Mages can make themselves invulenerable in NWN. Thier spells have obscene durations. I just learned today that haste speeds up thier spell casting! I nearly crapped myself when Aramil told me that. 2 spell a round? Sick. They get the best xp scale, can hang around areas that fighters have to leave 2 levels agoand still collect nice xp. Sure thier weak at low levels but that all changes when they get stoneskin. 10/+5 DR is not too shabby. Mages are the least dependant on equipement, and can solo better than any other class. Ive seen lvl 11 mages solo Tollgaroths cave. Glok couldnt do that until lvl 14. Now I now everyone is gonna say that Clerics are the most powerful...and in many ways they are right, but I thhink mages are right behind, provided a skilled player is behind them.
Glok
Posted: Thu May 01, 2003 1:44 pm
by Jorio Alerian
Jad:
Took this from the Official NWN website.
How do you differentiate between NWN and 3E rules knowing this?
Regards,
Jorio
Neverwinter Nights will be using the new 3rd Edition Dungeons & Dragons ruleset developed by Wizards of the Coast. The initial release of Neverwinter Nights will be based on the rules from the core rule books (Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and the Monster Manual) and will not include prestige classes, feats or additional material in supplemental source books (i.e. Song and Silence). A popular and long-standing pen-and-paper role-playing game in its own right, Dungeons & Dragons also has an extensive pedigree on the computer. It made its first appearance in the 'gold box' titles of the 1980s and now lies at the heart of some of the most popular and critically acclaimed computer role-playing games of the past few years: Baldur's Gate, Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn, Planescape: Torment, and Icewind Dale. Building on that success, the new 3rd Edition rules provide a much greater degree of flexibility in creating and developing your character, increase the level of player interaction with the gameworld, and enhance the overall playability and enjoyment of the game. The changes to the pen-and-paper game have been very well received and we're very excited to be bringing the 3rd Edition to a hard drive near you
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jadeia wrote:Remember we play NWN, not 3e.
Unless the team puts a "hak" into place, to simulate in NWN something in 3e, then don't use your 3e books as the bible.
This is not critism, just that I can see a potential for debate on a subject that shouldnt be.
Debate it as something you'd like to see in NWN, for sure.
Dont debate it as something you wont to enforce in NWN, that would be cheesy.
And yes Lanessa has a soul, so bite me