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Re: wiki/alignment change for Pelar

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Re: wiki/alignment change for Pelar

PostAuthor: Tigg » Fri May 04, 2007 11:16 pm

Asking here if the wiki change for Pelar was authorized Team-side?

Previously, Pelar, an NG deity, suddenly sprouted a NE sub-cult that had supposedly been there all along. Now the wiki is reflecting that the NE sub-cult could also be NG....

If the latest change is authorized, then what suggestions would there be for RPing such things.. Ignore them? Act like your character suddenly realized new information? Does it reflect new IG developments?
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Re: wiki/alignment change for Pelar

PostAuthor: MadK@ » Sat May 05, 2007 6:32 am

Tigg wrote:Asking here if the wiki change for Pelar was authorized Team-side?


Yes it was

Tigg wrote:Previously, Pelar, an NG deity, suddenly sprouted a NE sub-cult that had supposedly been there all along. Now the wiki is reflecting that the NE sub-cult could also be NG....
If the latest change is authorized, then what suggestions would there be for RPing such things.. Ignore them? Act like your character suddenly realized new information? Does it reflect new IG developments?


Your view that the Pelar church suddenly sprouted a sub cult is an ooc statement. The wiki explains in detail the history of the of the New and Fundamentalist Pelarite Church, any devout follower of Pelar would know this. If you read the history it will also note the IC developments that caused this resurgence.
http://wiki.avlis.org/Pelar
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PostAuthor: Marleh » Sat May 05, 2007 7:46 am

These sudden shifts in theology have placed several characters in a very strange situation. Many statements have been made in-character both by DMs and PCs that suddenly don't make sense anymore. How does the team suggest we deal with these statements?
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Re: wiki/alignment change for Pelar

PostAuthor: DarknessFallsLight » Sat May 05, 2007 9:19 am

MadK@ wrote:
Tigg wrote:Asking here if the wiki change for Pelar was authorized Team-side?


Yes it was

Tigg wrote:Previously, Pelar, an NG deity, suddenly sprouted a NE sub-cult that had supposedly been there all along. Now the wiki is reflecting that the NE sub-cult could also be NG....
If the latest change is authorized, then what suggestions would there be for RPing such things.. Ignore them? Act like your character suddenly realized new information? Does it reflect new IG developments?


Your view that the Pelar church suddenly sprouted a sub cult is an ooc statement. The wiki explains in detail the history of the of the New and Fundamentalist Pelarite Church, any devout follower of Pelar would know this. If you read the history it will also note the IC developments that caused this resurgence.
http://wiki.avlis.org/Pelar


If you read close it explains well enough. The fundamentalist sect has always been there just not as big in followers. Its not a sudden change or shift in belief at all rather a re-awakening. If anything the goodie church of Pelar is the newer, more sudden, one.
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PostAuthor: Marleh » Sat May 05, 2007 9:44 am

I realise that, I posted what is in the Wiki for Spool when he presented it, but that is the problem. For example, when I was a lvl 14 or so, I was speaking to a DM controlled NPC ranger who said he had followed Pelar all his life, which was something round 350 years, (he remembered the Bachwood as a forest) and he explained some of the teachings. This was one of the things which set my character on her path to help rebalance the lifestone and affected a lot of other things in her life. But according to this change, there is no way he could have followed that path as a follower of Pelar, since according to the Wiki the new church only started 50-70 years ago.

Thats why this is so confusing :( , should I suddenly change how I think of this ranger and treat it like his views were reformist for his age? How should I twist his story to fit these ooc new changes?
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PostAuthor: Havoulov » Sat May 05, 2007 11:37 am

Fundamentalists wrote:The Fundamentalist Church is where Pelar's religion began. Referred to as "the old ways" by New Pelarites, its foundations are more closely rooted to historical Pelarism. Fundamentalist Pelarism fell strongly out of favor during the two centuries of the M'Chek / T'Nanshi War, and conversions to Skern and Verossa took a heavy toll on the ranks................


New Pelarites wrote:After the rise in prominence of Skern during the 2nd Fairy War, Pelar's clergy began to see the faith wane. Coupled with the destruction of much natural habitat (and hunting grounds) over the course of the M'Chek / T'Nanshi war, the newer members began to preach a softer line, and to emphasize a more peaceful path to their deity..................



yet another place wrote:Coexisting with the New Pelarites, there have always been believers in Fundamentalist Pelarism.


Just wrote:...And vice versa


As you can suppose, you obviously met with a NG Pelarite that was anyway there before the general trend of the new pelarism. Could even be one of its leading souls. Do you remember his name? Many of the New pelarites were not newborn at the time of the split. But they always were affected by their Dru'Elian nature lets say..

It is hard to know which elf you talk to now, but i bet it was an elf :)
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PostAuthor: spool32 » Sun May 06, 2007 1:08 am

The original point at which the two styles of belief "split" is lost to history, but the Reformed ("New") church has for at least 3 centuries considered itself "The Church of Pelar", and the fundamentalists not really in the proper spirit of the religion. They consider the original teachings archaic, and have done so for at least an elven lifetime. No "New" Pelarites refer to themselves that way... they believe themselves simply to be Pelarites. Nowadays, most don't acknowledge the fundamentalist worshippers as a part of the religion.

The fundamentalists have for at least a thousand years been very loosely organized and often remain solitary for decades. This is part of the reason the "Church", and by that I mean the new church with it's slightly more organized structure and it's High Temple in Le'Or, felt comfortable making a formal shift in doctrine as the Fairy War ended. It was something they'd taught for a very long time before the formal change, but the focus of the Church shifted strongly toward what's considered "New Church" beliefs after the Fairy War concluded. The dual fact of their waning numbers and general T'Nanshi war weariness brought a formal reorganization, and something of a purge as well... many Fundamentalist priests found themselves out of favor with their congregations (though not with Pelar) and returned to a solitary life of hunting and teaching "the old ways" to an increasingly disinterested T'Nanshi population.

During the Evrakian crisis, the Fundamentalists experienced a strong revival due to what they claim is the return of an ancient Pelarite legend, a return which most Reformed church members deny actually happened. Some "New" Church members would argue strongly that this legend was never anything more than a collection of fables designed to teach, and never lived at all. Many Fundamentalists would argue exactly the opposite. Few claim to have seen this legend firsthand, but the belief he has truly returned is strongly held by many Fundamentalists who've felt lost and abandoned for at least a century.

So, your NG Pelarite could well have been raised to believe that his faith didn't include the Fundamentalists, or perhaps he deliberately left out discussion of that "obscure" facet of the church, or some blend of the two... regardless, it's certainly possible for a 350year old Pelarite to believe that the "Reformed" Church is the one true Church of Pelar, and teach that faith accordingly.

To answer Tigg,s question, it's a bit snitty to ask if a change to a God or a religion was authorized... of course it was. In this case, I submitted the entire thing to Orleron, who approved of it before any player was told of the change, and the resurgence of the Fundamentalist Church was a subplot during the Evrakian storyline, which lasted for most of 2006.

Officially, Pelar will take Any Good (NG favored) for Reformed or "Official" Pelarite followers, and Neutral Anything for Fundamentalists, with most of them being TN/NE. It is in fact a new development for a religion in which the more organized church remade itself as the "New" church, and the Fundamentalists found themselves gradually unwanted by, then unwilling to coexist with, the newly reorganized faith. That's how you should play it... not as if you always knew. In fact, to most "New Church" members, the Fundamentalist reappearance as a separate sect would have come as something of a surprise... anyone old enough to remember them likely figured they'd mostly died out or converted to Verossa.

Pelar's thoughts on the schism would be a challenge to discover, but locating a Fundamentalist priest who can still summon divine power might help interested PCs to go some distance toward an educated guess as to the God's opinion.

I'd be happy to go into a great deal more detail ICly, though your answers will of course differ depending on which NPC you ask.

-spool32
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PostAuthor: Fire Monkey » Sun May 06, 2007 12:46 pm

Awesome history Spool. Its still so tempting...
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PostAuthor: Tigg » Mon May 07, 2007 2:55 am

The only reason I asked if it was authorized was probably because I don't know much about how the Wiki works in its nuts and bolts. I have had the impression that anyone (team member or not) with a log-in could change information on it, which may be wrong, but it was that impression that was behind my inquiry. Just wanted to double-check, and thanks for answering my question.

My only comment would be that it seems rather heavyhanded to take a deity who is listed as Neutral Good, and make drastic changes after four years... changes which essentially imply that Neutral Good is merely a cultural aspect of the deity, and that the deity himself is True Neutral in nature. Making such changes and employing the maxim "it's always been there, you just didn't know about it", it could just as easily be said, for instance, that the original church of Maleki was Chaotic Good/Neutral in nature and by the way there are now and have always been Chaotic Good Malekites running around. While no one questions the right of team members to change world lore, as players we do tend to make assumptions about the reliability of certain given information, such as that a deity listed as Neutral Good really 'is' Neutral Good, and would therefore be disinclined to grant divine-class spells to those of an evil nature. When changes of this type are made, it can be somewhat jarring to players, so with that explanation off my chest I do apologize for any snittiness regarding this. Forward and onward, as they say.
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PostAuthor: spool32 » Mon May 07, 2007 7:02 am

It's starting to sound a lot more like a complaint than a comment. All I can say to you is:

1: Not sudden... it took a RL year to restablish the Fundamentalists and they still have no temples and only one static priest. Perhaps sudden for you... but not sudden.

2: Quick, name all the Evangelical Christian faiths.


You missed one.


3: Change is necessary to make the world dynamic. Setting all things in stone, with no changes whatsoever, causes the world to stagnate. The change to Pelar's faith was one of greater inclusion for PCs... it's not as if you suddenly found yourself out of favor due to an arbitrary shift by the Team. Evolution of religion needs history.. it doesn't arise without something to cause it. I put as much effort into hooking the change in the Pelarite faith into the world in realistic and believable manner as anybody's put into any change on Avlis. In my opinion, it would have been much less believable to create a sudden rift in the church, than to describe it as we did. I even went so far as to OOCly ask all Pelarites to PM me so that I could involve them in the change... response was lukewarm at best. Those who did, were given a lot of backstory to work with and from.

4: I'm surprised to hear of your jarring experience at this late date, to be honest. The change has been official for several months, and you've been playing a Pelarite all that time, and even met the IC engine of that change. Nevertheless, I'm sorry if it threw you for a loop. Rest assured, it wasn't done casually or with disregard for history or PC's backstories... I hate retconning, and try to avoid it as much as possible. If it's any consolation, you're the first player I've heard had some difficulty, so overall I have to assume it didn't disturb the community much.

If I'm wrong, anybody's welcome to PM me.

-spool32
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