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Now Whaddya Want Coming Down the Pipe?

General discussion about Avlis

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Now Whaddya Want Coming Down the Pipe?

PostAuthor: Deider » Sat Jan 10, 2004 2:40 am

The Gentleman plot is 95% done (the Order of the Shadow remains, but that's neither here nor there). I want to thank everyone who participated in today's event. For those of you who have been involved in the plot and couldn't attend today, don't feel left out. I have kept records of who has been involved, and I will find and reward you for what you have done.

But that's not the purpose of this post. I just finished my leg of an adventure that has been going on for over three months. An adventure that was born from your feedback. I have another plot I've been running that I'll focus on now, but when that finishes I'll be looking for that next big adventure idea.

That's where you folks come in. Time for a good ole-fashioned DM/adventure evaluation. What have you liked about the DM events you've been in? What have you not liked? And what do you want to see more of in the future?

One thing I know people have been asking for is more mini-adventures or 'one-night-stands' that end on the day you play them. Once I finish the remaining plot I've got going now I plan on running things like that for quite some time, but while doing so I intend to dream up another grand adventure (or just steal the ideas you post here, whichever's easier :wink:).
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PostAuthor: Nob » Sat Jan 10, 2004 2:52 am

Hmm, generally enjoyed this plot, but when it came to wrapping up it became a bit unwieldy in general.

The idea of smaller one-night stands where you can focus on char development rather than saving the entirety of Avlis doesn't sound so bad lately.(Soap opera sessions?)

In general I think a lot of these are good lessons that while a plot works with lots of people involved, it doesn't really work when you put those people together. Maybe something interweaved but not necessary to have converge at the end might be interesting.

The intrigue angle in this Gentleman affair was very interesting, maybe build on that next time? Killing stuff is fun, but we can do that without Dm interaction, whereas having secret meetings and conspiracies isn't quite as easy.

Just a few cents, y'know.

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PostAuthor: KinX » Sat Jan 10, 2004 4:01 am

Nob wrote:Hmm, generally enjoyed this plot, but when it came to wrapping up it became a bit unwieldy in general.

The idea of smaller one-night stands where you can focus on char development rather than saving the entirety of Avlis doesn't sound so bad lately.(Soap opera sessions?)

In general I think a lot of these are good lessons that while a plot works with lots of people involved, it doesn't really work when you put those people together. Maybe something interweaved but not necessary to have converge at the end might be interesting.

The intrigue angle in this Gentleman affair was very interesting, maybe build on that next time? Killing stuff is fun, but we can do that without Dm interaction, whereas having secret meetings and conspiracies isn't quite as easy.

Just a few cents, y'know.

--Nob


i agree. I like the idea that people should get the opportunity to develop there character's persona's more.

Also, maybe adventures on a lesser scale are the order of the day. There's only so many times you can save the world from annihilation. Granted some of us have been around for a long time and would have obviously been part of many of these adventures. But they tend to end up attracting Avlis' most powerful adventurers attention and newer/lower lev characters may get 'pushed out' of the lime light.

I saw a small part of that golem adventure, but from that little part i thought it was great.
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PostAuthor: Vergilius » Sat Jan 10, 2004 4:19 am

KinX wrote:Also, maybe adventures on a lesser scale are the order of the day. There's only so many times you can save the world from annihilation. Granted some of us have been around for a long time and would have obviously been part of many of these adventures. But they tend to end up attracting Avlis' most powerful adventurers attention and newer/lower lev characters may get 'pushed out' of the lime light.


I want to second this remark. Almost anything big in scope ends up in the hands of the most powerful adventurers, and sometimes ends up on the plate of the leaders of organizations.

I know you guys like to spread the love out, but one difficulty with long plots is they often need the same chars for multiple segments of it, and then when you run a big shebang at the end, you wind up with far too many than can adequately participate.

Personally, I don't like events that involve a lot of people. If you want to develop your character's personality, you have to have room to develop it. This really maxes out around 6 people. Anything bigger than that, and you wind up with the forward personalities taking over and the others taking a back seat and sort of watching.

I enjoy the DMs who pick out the players they want to play in the event and slowly lead them to some obscure corner of the server where no one just "happens" to wander and then let them develop themselves.

Its getting to the point where Markets and city gates are clichic.

Sure, its ok to want to involve as many as possible in any given event, but the quality of the event suffers the more people that gets added to it.

In this respect, I'm all up for more one-time adventures with a focused group......come back the next night, find a different group. I'd rather have one very good session, strong RP interaction with other players and the DM than 15 sessions of so-so calibur involving 10+ people, little in the way of RP because the dominating personalities are the only ones that talk, spawns that are either not challenging enough or too challenging, etc.

I'll think of more aspects later, but for now, I'd like the single sessions.

Sorry I didn't get involved in the gentleman quest more, but its hard for a US guy to get into your plots when you live in Japan and our playing hours often don't overlap.

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PostAuthor: KinX » Sat Jan 10, 2004 4:41 am

Vergilius wrote:I know you guys like to spread the love out, but one difficulty with long plots is they often need the same chars for multiple segments of it, and then when you run a big shebang at the end, you wind up with far too many than can adequately participate.

Personally, I don't like events that involve a lot of people. If you want to develop your character's personality, you have to have room to develop it. This really maxes out around 6 people. Anything bigger than that, and you wind up with the forward personalities taking over and the others taking a back seat and sort of watching.


actually, i'm very happy with where my char is right now. I've pretty much stayed true to my vision of who and what he is. So lately, i've been trying to step back a little in big events and let other people take the limelight. I want him to become more of a mentor or guide to other adventurers now, rather than being the one who jumps out into the front all the time to take care of everything and let everyone else go to sleep.

Looking over that last passage makes me smile a little. When i started out i just wanted him to be a big hero who was dedicated to Gorethar, now that he's more or less achieved that, i want to step back and help the newer generation step up to the plate. Awww, my little boy's growing up :D

Sorry I didn't get involved in the gentleman quest more, but its hard for a US guy to get into your plots when you live in Japan and our playing hours often don't overlap.


funny you say that, considering the majority of the DM's and team members are in America/Europe and us player's down under on the other side of the world often miss out on these events or even getting DM love. Which has obviously changed because now we've got Jadeia, Deider and Tinder in our timezone. Which is two more than we had a few months ago.
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PostAuthor: Melakin Skywieder » Sat Jan 10, 2004 4:50 am

For those of you who have been involved in the plot and couldn't attend today, don't feel left out. I have kept records of who has been involved, and I will find and reward you for what you have done.


AHHHHH but you can't cause I'm trapped in custom character prision :roll:

Seriously Deider, the gentleman's plot was beautiful. SO EVIL SO POLITE :D

Like Verg and Nob I like the chance at character development (as you well know :wink: ) though without some specific information that might be difficult. I like to think that the character I make is developed by Avlis rather than by me. That is I can make someone who is evil bent but meeting someone who befriends him can turn him from the dark side (or to the dark side :twisted: ). Not everyone would go that way though...there are some which want a paladin or blackguard and they will be playing things out that way.

Anyways keep up the good work, though I only got involved a bit in the Gentleman's plot I followed the IC notes on the boards with great interest.
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PostAuthor: diddeecoy » Sat Jan 10, 2004 6:00 am

Even though this plot was 3 months it consisted of loads of little segments where smaller parties were taking the plot forwards. I like the way the intrigue gets built that way. Just the ending was a bit crowded, but great fun all the same. Each self-contained 'part' of this plot did end at the end of the session, with another piece in the jig-saw being the reward. Memorably, though I only read about these, was Sarrena's story-telling contest and Tahni finding out about the history of the three heroes 70 years ago. Each RP session does have an ending .. it ends with another bit of the puzzle solved, or another clue, whatever.

Me, I like plots that make full use of world info, and help develop it, adding to lore of Avlis as we go. This is what combines with character developments to make the world. I also like plots that are great fun. You manage to combine these really well. Long or short, I don't mind, but keep them coming!
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PostAuthor: ashzz » Sat Jan 10, 2004 6:07 am

more smaller quests, mini bosses, lots of short 3 hour, or one night adventures?

id like to see something revolving around leor or deglos myself, maybe leor...leor needs some PC loving.

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PostAuthor: Jorio Alerian » Sat Jan 10, 2004 7:27 am

ashzz wrote:more smaller quests, mini bosses, lots of short 3 hour, or one night adventures?

id like to see something revolving around leor or deglos myself, maybe leor...leor needs some PC loving.

ashzz


I could not agree more. Start a quest in Elysia or Mikona for example, but then shift the focus to one of the other servers and get people used to playing there.

Deglos is ideal. I could give you 5-6 wonderful areas to base a plot in that would be fantastic places to run a story or campaign.

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PostAuthor: choraldances » Sat Jan 10, 2004 8:31 am

ashzz wrote:
id like to see something revolving around leor or deglos myself, maybe leor...leor needs some PC loving.

ashzz


coming.. coming.. :)
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PostAuthor: Chasman » Sat Jan 10, 2004 10:12 am

An idea I have bounced around with some of the DMs and a few players is a storyline where a PC uses other players(of a lower lvl) to complete his quest.

Let me give an example using my main PC, Peregryne.

Peregryne is wanting to build a golem, but as mere gathering of parts, and running around to find them is beneath his standards as a mage, he hires a group to do these tasks for him (advertises or hand picks a group).

Now why would he hire someone to do this when he's a 26th lvl character that can blast thru just about anything around? Because thats what higher level characters should be doing !!! They farm out some of these more mundane tasks to people who need the work, and are willing and able to do it, instead of huffing and puffing their old asses thru the caves of the Underdark or where ever.

Now something along these lines can be as long or as short as the DM wants, and they can be about anything you like. Making a golem, retrieving a powerful staff, a special gem that the greedy high lvl PC just fuckin' wants to have, etc...

The key is the player generates the quest. Making them hard or easy, long or short, is the DMs job. He can determine the length of the "storyline". Now back to the story...

Say that Peregrynes rival, the silly mage known as Damar :P wants the same damn thing, so he hires his own group to retrieve the necessary parts to build his golem . Then you have some nice CvC rivalry, or possibly even some backstabbing as the two parties work to achieve their own quests that lay inside the larger quest of Peregrynes. The RP potential for stuff like this is fantastic!

What makes things like this fun is the fact that the plot line isn't determined. IOW, Peregryne could "lose". Damar could retrieve the key piece to building the golem, leaving Pere out in the cold. But oh my how that fucker is gonna pay the next time they have a face off !
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PostAuthor: Croton » Sat Jan 10, 2004 4:40 pm

I like the idea of one overall larger goal that is broken into mini quests along the way. With this people can join at any point, but it also gives importance to the work people do.

I also like the the idea above where a PC uses lower level characters, but I guess I have 2 questions about that. In that type of example, is the DM posing as a PC to assign the quest? Or is it just a regular PC that coordinates with a DM to get that quest started / completed?

Now that I'm thinking of this, it may open a lot of options. Maybe there could be a "DM run quest request" section of the Forums, where if your PC has something they want accomplished they can make the request. The request would not be visible by anyone except the DMs. If any of the DMs want to pick that up and do it, then the DM & PC work out the details and then IC the PC could post a message asking other characters to sign up for their mission. Once enough people sign up, a meeting time is set and the group gathers to hear the details of the mission, then then go do it.

This could work similar to having a NPC dishing out mini quests, but it would be the PCs coming up with the plot, and the DMs doing what only they can do.

***EDIT***

A couple more thoughts:
1. you'd probably want to set the date & time before people sign up so that they'd know if they could make it.

2. The PC would be the one that would pay the people who sign up, so they could target certain levels of people based on what the payout is for being successful. A few +1 items, or a +2 to a skill item are not going to attract much big talent, so you know what kind of people will sign up. Just like 500 gp won't bring in the talent that 5000 gp will bring in.

3. You could do it similar to the way the Bug report is set up, but with three sections.
a. Open for volunteers section.
b. Closed to volunteers section.
c. Mission completed section with the story of what took place.

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PostAuthor: Snorri Elfslayer » Sat Jan 10, 2004 5:13 pm

I havent got much to say on the matter, but personally, I really loved the bit where our characters got made to RP other characters to infiltrate a meeting, I dont know why, but that was great fun. :D
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PostAuthor: Fifty » Sat Jan 10, 2004 6:07 pm

Snorri Elfslayer wrote:I havent got much to say on the matter, but personally, I really loved the bit where our characters got made to RP other characters to infiltrate a meeting, I dont know why, but that was great fun. :D


It was good 'cos lower levels played a part of a larger overall quest.
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PostAuthor: Fifty » Sat Jan 10, 2004 6:14 pm

I want some visitors from Khanjar Kuro, but we do not use the necessary Haks really...
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PostAuthor: choraldances » Sat Jan 10, 2004 7:15 pm

croton wrote:I like the idea of one overall larger goal that is broken into mini quests along the way. With this people can join at any point, but it also gives importance to the work people do.

.


This is my DM style :)

big plot worked into little ones to different people.
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PostAuthor: Titanium Dragon » Sat Jan 10, 2004 7:31 pm

After a while, as people have said, saving the world gets to be old hat and we've all done it. Maybe things like:

Investigating the assassination of an NPC
Investigating the razing of some village (possibly in Ferrel or Deglos)
Finding some item, but being in a race with other PCs and NPCs to do so

One-off adventures are always good too.
Last edited by Titanium Dragon on Sat Jan 10, 2004 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostAuthor: KinX » Sat Jan 10, 2004 7:32 pm

croton wrote:I also like the the idea above where a PC uses lower level characters, but I guess I have 2 questions about that. In that type of example, is the DM posing as a PC to assign the quest? Or is it just a regular PC that coordinates with a DM to get that quest started / completed?


From what Chasman posted, i assume it's players co-ordinating with DM's to achieve a certain goal.

Problem being, of course that there's far more players than there are DM's. Unless this form of quest is restricted to epic level char's only, which would make more sense i guess. These would be the ones who couldn't be stuffed going down into dank dungeons anymore, after having done it tens of thousands of times themselves. :D
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PostAuthor: DAnjal Veskandar Rai » Sat Jan 10, 2004 8:02 pm

I really like the idea as well, 'cause my char would love to grant quests to the lowbies. He used to send around lowlevels in Mikona, but there are only that many times you can send a char to go collect beetle bellies you know. (*cough* Vortex plot *cough*)

More important/difficult quests then fetch quests or bodyguard assignements need DM intervention. 'Could be very interesting.
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PostAuthor: Snorri Elfslayer » Sat Jan 10, 2004 8:11 pm

Sorry if this sounds like a rant, but I suppose it is in a way...


What I would like to see if more DM's just giving out small quests to people they stumble accross who look bored/ have nothing to do.
Ive been on Avlis since Christmas Day, and spent a lot of time on here over the holidays, and not once have I been involved in anything by a DM (other than the ravager plot which I went to).

I know this may be that there are a limited amount of DM's, but surely with the amount of time ive spent on there in the past few weeks, you would have thought I would have met atleast one DM?

Also, quite a few people have commented about my ability to RP (In a good way that is), but yet I have never received anything for it.

Personally I think this might be one of the reasons why some people resort to "power-crafting" or "power-gaming" in general...


Anyway, sorry for the rant being in the wrong place....


But what I think is that DM's should spend more time giving small quests to low level chars. :roll:
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PostAuthor: KinX » Sat Jan 10, 2004 8:33 pm

Snorri Elfslayer wrote:Sorry if this sounds like a rant, but I suppose it is in a way...


What I would like to see if more DM's just giving out small quests to people they stumble accross who look bored/ have nothing to do.
Ive been on Avlis since Christmas Day, and spent a lot of time on here over the holidays, and not once have I been involved in anything by a DM (other than the ravager plot which I went to).

I know this may be that there are a limited amount of DM's, but surely with the amount of time ive spent on there in the past few weeks, you would have thought I would have met atleast one DM?

Also, quite a few people have commented about my ability to RP (In a good way that is), but yet I have never received anything for it.

Personally I think this might be one of the reasons why some people resort to "power-crafting" or "power-gaming" in general...


Anyway, sorry for the rant being in the wrong place....


But what I think is that DM's should spend more time giving small quests to low level chars. :roll:


all i can say is: hang in there. People should be rp'ing for the sake of rp'ing. That's how you get noticed. I admit though, especially when ther's 2-3 people on the server with me, i go for quick little trips into certain caves because i'm bored. I've lost count of the number of times i've recieved DM attention while i was bashing away at giants, golems, beetles, minotaurs, morhgs etc etc etc

Best way to get attention is to be in a group. Don't be afraid to send a tell to someone to the effect of: i'm bored and i was wondering if you could tell me where you are so i can 'bump' into you, if you're busy don't worry.

Or you could always send a message on the DM channel. Something like: "HEY! i'm bored, gimme some of the DM love everyone else but me seems to be getting, tightarse". But i wouldn't recommend wording it like that.

Also, you're in a better timezone than i am for DM attention. Theoretically, you should be getting more DM attention than the players on my side of the world. Once a DM watches you RP and likes what he sees, the more chance that same DM will have a look to see what you're doing if he ever sees you online.

I know of a crafter who got DM attention because he sang mining songs when he thought no one else wsa around. Though i hear that adventure went very slowly because he was weighed down by ore.

But yeah, just hang in there...
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PostAuthor: Snorri Elfslayer » Sat Jan 10, 2004 8:40 pm

Lol I spent a good 5-10mins playing tag with a random NPC fairy earlyer, was amazing fun even though it was really only me doing anything.
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PostAuthor: Vergilius » Sat Jan 10, 2004 8:49 pm

Getting DM love:

group up--has always been said.

RP--you seem to already be doing this, which is a good thing

but something that hasn't been said is that there comes a point when you've played enough with a character to "establish" them. This doesn't mean you have to be high level, I've seen players become established at level 2, it just means you're a recognized regular. I remember my newbie days, it took about a month or so from when I started playing for me to run into a DM. Part of it is that there were far fewer active DMs then than there are today. Really, you have very good chances, just keep at it. The DMs will find their way to you eventually.

other things that may help but aren't necessary:

A. join a guild---a lot of small events and internal plots happen around various guilds.

B. Post IC tavern posts---a lot of the ongoing plots get reported......jump in and make splash, at the very least it gets you noticed by anyone who reads the post, which translates into a lot of good RP IC. Furthermore, if DMs read the thread and realize you are trying very hard to participate in their quest, even if they haven't run into yet, they JUST MIGHT decide to toss you a little something to further the plot if they do run into IG. Thats entirely their perrogative, so don't get discouraged if you don't, but in my experience, they know good RP when they see it and do their best to reward it accordingly.


and last of all

patience---I too have gotten frustrated at various points in the past, but I have to remind myself to have patience. I know its clichic to say, but its vitally important.

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PostAuthor: Fifty » Sat Jan 10, 2004 9:05 pm

And don't run more than one or two characters. That dilutes your recognisability.
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PostAuthor: Fifty » Sat Jan 10, 2004 9:09 pm

And I want a political plot with someone trying to seize power in Mikona from within. Less fighting, more spying and sneaking and talking.

Perhaps a senior council member fancies himself as Prime Minister as a preulde to taking a crown and declaring himself king?
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