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Outlook on PW's in NWN2?

Polls for Avlis homepage.

How is your outlook on whether or not PW's will work well in NWN2?

Super! Thanks for asking!
11
6%
Optimistic
79
41%
Good, but not great
26
14%
Ok
12
6%
meh
20
10%
Pessimistic
26
14%
Atari needs to die, then maybe ok
17
9%
 
Total votes : 191

PostAuthor: downsystem » Fri Jul 07, 2006 6:17 am

Vichan Lyonsen wrote:
Tesh wrote:God I hope that they can optimise the outdoor area walkmeshes better. Last time I did any reading on it the biggest issue was that for any given outdoor area they needed to do 'null walkmeshing' (I think thats what they called it) where if an area was say... 10x10 they needed to make walkmesh data for a 12x12 area so that horizons and graphics in the distance could be included which blew out the memory load in a big way....



that extra tile you talk about deals with the skybox for the exact reason you mention...basicly a 1 tile border around each area for the skybox. That needs to be taken into account when building.


Right them extras borders will need to be considered when building the area but im pretty sure their are no walk meshes in that extra border area. After all no one walks in them, its just visual thing.
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PostAuthor: girlysprite » Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:04 am

People that don't like how games are targetted at the '13 year olds' (actually the target group is somewhat older, but thats besides the point) put up with that. If they'd target for us, they'd loose focus of the other 90%, which is suicide.

Now as for PW's...long time ago my bf also played avlis and critised the number of empty areas. And with that I must agree with him at some times ;) and Im not even talking of wilderness, but lets take elysia for example: It has lots of farm areas which people will mostly only run through and sometimes grab an ingredient that grows there. While it may be nice for the experience of size, we could do with a lot less areas there.

I have played on servers with a lot less areas that did very well. It just depends onhow you design the module.
so we need another scope to design the new avlis. But in my view we certain don't need more then 50 outdoors areas per mod. Hell, what do you intent to do with all of those?
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PostAuthor: Xeo » Fri Jul 07, 2006 11:30 am

Depends on the tools.

Though without the DM cleint being made in stone yet. I could see WoW style mods being developed with the toolset. So without the DM cleint its going to be a hack and slash. (Or maybe not.....)

If there's a will, theres a way. Though to be honest there's better MOD/PW's based games out on the market.

I think PW's will spring up if the DM cleint is made a dead cert. If so, there is going to be a few PW's. Weather any good? Well depends who the people whom develop it....

To if's and but's at the moment. I've been eyeing up a new game and waiting for its release...... :twisted: . From the idea's and system they have developed its got the ingredients of being something very special just like NWN over the years.

*fingers crossed*
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PostAuthor: markschouten » Fri Jul 07, 2006 4:24 pm

Xeo Bodacea wrote:Depends on the tools.

Though without the DM cleint being made in stone yet. I could see WoW style mods being developed with the toolset. So without the DM cleint its going to be a hack and slash. (Or maybe not.....)

If there's a will, theres a way. Though to be honest there's better MOD/PW's based games out on the market.

I think PW's will spring up if the DM cleint is made a dead cert. If so, there is going to be a few PW's. Weather any good? Well depends who the people whom develop it....

To if's and but's at the moment. I've been eyeing up a new game and waiting for its release...... :twisted: . From the idea's and system they have developed its got the ingredients of being something very special just like NWN over the years.

*fingers crossed*


Don't worry Xeo, as has been stated before: the DM Client will be released as a seperate download/patch on the day of the game's release.
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PostAuthor: Crimzonfist » Sat Jul 08, 2006 6:18 am

i vote optimistic,

Ive read alot of talk about the memory footprint, demands on the servers and limitations on mod sizes because of these demands. From what ive read the avlis community is quite large, and as such has power, so why not try and raise some money so we can make significant upgrades to the servers. I personaly don't have alot of money but i have had a lot of fun here, so i for one would be willing to put my money were my mouth is to see a nwn2 avlis. And im betting many others would as well. A little bit from everyone would add up to alot. Even without this i think its doable though limiting the scope of the game would be a shame. :)

just my 2 cense

P.S. Keep in mind im not a member of the team, just another member of the Avlis community.
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PostAuthor: Veilan » Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:15 am

Considering the small size of most Avlis servers area wise, it should be well okay.

In general, I'm a bit disappointed, if you want to reflect a region properly you probably have to put up at least two 2 gig ram server machines, splitting a region into two servers. Then again by the time it comes out, that might not be a problem... ;)
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PostAuthor: Fifty » Mon Jul 10, 2006 5:55 pm

Most of the people willing to put their money where their mouths are doing so already, methinks.
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PostAuthor: Nightface » Mon Jul 10, 2006 6:42 pm

I don't feel comfortable voting until I find out one thing about the World maps. During my journey from point A to point B, will there be a scriptable chance of a random encounter, like in Baldur's Gate 2? If the "boring" trips are going to be relegated to an icon moving on a world map until I reach the destination, I would bloody well hope that the trip will occassionally be livened up by the odd bandit attack.

On a similar note, if anybody has info related to my first question, do we have any clue if DMs will be able to "force" random encounters during a trip when the players are involved in an event?
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PostAuthor: Xeo » Tue Jul 11, 2006 10:32 am

markschouten wrote:
Xeo Bodacea wrote:Depends on the tools.

Though without the DM cleint being made in stone yet. I could see WoW style mods being developed with the toolset. So without the DM cleint its going to be a hack and slash. (Or maybe not.....)

If there's a will, theres a way. Though to be honest there's better MOD/PW's based games out on the market.

I think PW's will spring up if the DM cleint is made a dead cert. If so, there is going to be a few PW's. Weather any good? Well depends who the people whom develop it....

To if's and but's at the moment. I've been eyeing up a new game and waiting for its release...... :twisted: . From the idea's and system they have developed its got the ingredients of being something very special just like NWN over the years.

*fingers crossed*


Don't worry Xeo, as has been stated before: the DM Client will be released as a seperate download/patch on the day of the game's release.


Ahhhh cheers.... I've been following a progress of anthore game in development recenlty and to be honest kinda of forgot about NWN2. Ta for the tip off mark.
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PostAuthor: Themicles » Tue Jul 11, 2006 2:58 pm

You're overreacting a bit there, Orleron.

I'm not saying to limit modules to 70 areas. I think Avlis is already set up for NWN1 the way NWN2 PWs will have to setup. Obsidian devs specifically comment that they don't believe the average PW builder will be able to run an *entire* PW in a single mod on a single computer.

Now, that's not to say Avlis' current area counts per module are ideal, either. They already stress Aurora as it is. But I don't see it so limiting as 70 areas per module.

Twin Cities has a few hundred areas, is kept just shy of under 50megs, and runs great when we actually have enough traffic to test it. And it has room to grow yet.
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PostAuthor: Crimzonfist » Tue Jul 11, 2006 5:28 pm

Fifty wrote:
Most of the people willing to put their money where their mouths are doing so already, methinks.


Good point and likely true... I did, after posting that, up my donation a few bucks :D

Edit: though looking at my title it seems something may have gone wrong. Ill have to watch my title and see if it changes again soon.
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PostAuthor: tindertwiggy » Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:01 pm

When NWN1 Avlis started it consisted of the 6 or so core areas of Mikona. They were not 5% as fleshed out as they are now. It was, however, just as fun. The game is about the people who play it with you. The DM's and other players bring a lot of imagination and entertainment.

We made a lot of advances with NWN1 and come a long way. Overcoming the persistance problem was thought impossible, yet Pap did it. NWN2 will progress in much the same way. We'll grow slowly but surely, the new content that the team produces will give the dm's and players new ways to keep the game fresh and interesting.

It's not going to be perfect out of the box. That's half the fun.
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PostAuthor: Themicles » Wed Jul 12, 2006 1:44 am

tindertwiggy wrote:It's not going to be perfect out of the box. That's half the fun.


Hear, Hear!

:D
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PostAuthor: Crimzonfist » Wed Jul 12, 2006 1:50 am

tindertwiggy wrote:
It's not going to be perfect out of the box. That's half the fun.

Themicles wrote:
Hear, Hear!

Very Happy


+1, excellent way to look at things :good:
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PostAuthor: Orleron » Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:04 pm

I stand by my extreme pessimism and lack of faith in this game. From: http://nwn2.warcry.com/scripts/news/vie ... 1&id=55942

Will a local copy of the module be required?

[*] At this point, yes, at least the walkmesh portion. Walkmeshes will be version stamped and a check will be performed on log in to determine if the versions match. Brian Lawson and Adam Brenneke later confirmed this fact.




Another big show-stopper. Modules are going to be BIG. They are big now (over 50 megs for a small one). They are going to be bigger in NWN2. Making everyone download the entire module and hakpaks is going to SUCK.

Moreover, notice what they say about versions of walkmeshes matching. That means if you download the Wilderness module, and my module coordinator adds one new area to it, everyone has to download the whole fucking thing again. Does anyone realize how often we add new areas to Avlis? Like multiple times a day sometimes. Forget about player housing in any case, unless interior areas do not affect the walkmesh version number. Even if the version numbers are the same, you might have to download the entire module again if we add one player house. L-A-M-E


Will it be possible to encrypt the files players download in order to make them secure and avoid spoiling secrets?

[*] Unknown at this time though it –seems- like it would be something that can be accomplished. It is something the developers are still considering and working on.



Wondering how to get past that tough dungeon, or what monsters spawn around the corner? Easy! Simply open up the module on your local machine and take a look at it in the toolset!

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Will the DM client be ready for download on the day of release?

[*] Simply put: Yes.




Hallelujah. We'll be able to DM a game but not set up a PW to DM it in.


Folks, you can't use persistance as an example. We ALWAYS knew we would overcome persistance, even if NWNX never got invented. We had systems of persistence before NWNX that worked, though they were kludgy. Getting data into and out of a game is not an engine problem. It's an I/O problem. The stuff they are talking about above is engine-related, meaning unless NWN2 is open source, we ain't fixing it.
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PostAuthor: Orleron » Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:11 pm

From my POV, this is a game that shouldn't have been made. The only thing it accomplishes is giving NWN better graphics at the expense of its ability to generate a good PW modding community. NWN1 could have kept up its modding community in some form or another long after Bio stopped patching it. But since this sequel is coming out, people will naturally gravitate towards it and away from NWN1, which seems to me to be the better game at this point from what I can read.

I have said this much before, that I wish they would never make a sequel to NWN because it's fine as it is and the community is able to improve it quite well enough. We have.

Sadly, I also have a background in business and understand the reasons why this is being done, and it boils down to revenue. For that reason, I don't think you'll ever actually see a good D&D game for "Mak'n Yo Own PW".
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PostAuthor: TripleAught » Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:59 pm

I was just reading that article on WarCry today and thinking some of the same thoughts.

Too bad they stuck with the NWN1 mantra of not building for PWs. I know that modding was (and is) a huge part of NWN's continued success, but so is building large campaign worlds to stomp around in.

Heck, even if you are only building something for your group of 5 friends to play around in on Friday nights, you are going to be very limited in what you can build.

Sad.

Sad.

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PostAuthor: downsystem » Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:06 pm

Another big show-stopper. Modules are going to be BIG. They are big now (over 50 megs for a small one). They are going to be bigger in NWN2. Making everyone download the entire module and hakpaks is going to SUCK.

Moreover, notice what they say about versions of walkmeshes matching. That means if you download the Wilderness module, and my module coordinator adds one new area to it, everyone has to download the whole fucking thing again. Does anyone realize how often we add new areas to Avlis? Like multiple times a day sometimes. Forget about player housing in any case, unless interior areas do not affect the walkmesh version number. Even if the version numbers are the same, you might have to download the entire module again if we add one player house. L-A-M-E


Im not really sure how big your module's will wind up being but you really think that they will be that bad to download when everyone that will play the nwn2 version will be required to use a cable or similar speed internet service. Just the other day my internet service here in michigan was trying to get me to up my 3 meg to their new 5 meg service. I cant imagine them modules of yours taking that long to download with that speed. Imagine what it will be 2 to 3 years from now when the internet gets faster, i dont suppose that be a issue at all.

Are any of these issues you mentioned something you could bring up to the makers to have them change in a patch or something?
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PostAuthor: Ilsensine » Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:39 pm

Are any of these issues you mentioned something you could bring up to the makers to have them change in a patch or something?


sounds like an engine issue to me so i doubt it will be patched much.. and even if the DL speed / time is fast.. how thrilled will you be if every other time you try to log on to play you gotta download six 20-50 meg files (one for each server)...Early nwn2 pw's will be updating ALOT as content grows.

Also I'm willing to bet the process of buildign the mod is what created the new version stamp - so even if you only add an interior space (not effecting the exterior walkmesh) you will probably make a new version walkmesh when you build the mod after adding it.

I suppose they might have a checkbox that permits you to skip outputting a new walkmesh which would help...

Unfortunatly there is still a lot we dont know.. and what we are hearing now could very easily change before the game goes gold.
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PostAuthor: downsystem » Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:41 pm

Well i dont know about anyone else but i usually wind up reading avlis forums for a good amount of time before i even start playing anyways. so that be the time id do the downloading.
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PostAuthor: Tigg » Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:08 pm

Orleron wrote:For that reason, I don't think you'll ever actually see a good D&D game for "Mak'n Yo Own PW".


I think it would be a nice money-maker. Unfortunately D&D Online is already out, though, but I still have hope that in the future some developer will wake up and realize that the more creativity and flexibility that's put in the hands of the community, the better the product will be.
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PostAuthor: pincushionman » Fri Jul 14, 2006 12:13 am

downsystem wrote:
Another big show-stopper. Modules are going to be BIG. They are big now (over 50 megs for a small one). They are going to be bigger in NWN2. Making everyone download the entire module and hakpaks is going to SUCK.

Moreover, notice what they say about versions of walkmeshes matching. That means if you download the Wilderness module, and my module coordinator adds one new area to it, everyone has to download the whole fucking thing again. Does anyone realize how often we add new areas to Avlis? Like multiple times a day sometimes. Forget about player housing in any case, unless interior areas do not affect the walkmesh version number. Even if the version numbers are the same, you might have to download the entire module again if we add one player house. L-A-M-E


Im not really sure how big your module's will wind up being but you really think that they will be that bad to download when everyone that will play the nwn2 version will be required to use a cable or similar speed internet service. Just the other day my internet service here in michigan was trying to get me to up my 3 meg to their new 5 meg service. I cant imagine them modules of yours taking that long to download with that speed. Imagine what it will be 2 to 3 years from now when the internet gets faster, i dont suppose that be a issue at all.

Are any of these issues you mentioned something you could bring up to the makers to have them change in a patch or something?

The issue is not just having to download a large file. The issue is the possible need to do so every single time you log on. THAT would royally suck. Unless the module would automatically stream to you when you connect to the server (like it does on Half-Life maps), it would be a really big hassle.
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PostAuthor: girlysprite » Fri Jul 14, 2006 12:28 am

Cant blame oblivion really. The PW community is miniscule, compared to games sold. There were quite some people downloading single player campaigns pr multiplayer campaigns to play over lan, but PW is just small.
thats just the sad truth. Obsidian arent assholes, its a compagny that has to make a game in a very limited timeframe for their actual targetgroup, which is not us.

edit: spelled name wrong. gimme a break, its late :)
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PostAuthor: Nightface » Fri Jul 14, 2006 12:34 am

Orleron wrote:
Will a local copy of the module be required?

[*] At this point, yes, at least the walkmesh portion. Walkmeshes will be version stamped and a check will be performed on log in to determine if the versions match. Brian Lawson and Adam Brenneke later confirmed this fact.


Any guesses how big the walkmeshes would be as a seperate file? Just reading this snippet, it sounds to me like that's what you need, not necessarily the entire mod.

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PostAuthor: chilingsworth » Fri Jul 14, 2006 12:35 am

Fair enough, Girly.

Since the new game will do little save shove a boot up our *explative deleted* anyone for a boycott? :)
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