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Outlook on PW's in NWN2?

Polls for Avlis homepage.

How is your outlook on whether or not PW's will work well in NWN2?

Super! Thanks for asking!
11
6%
Optimistic
79
41%
Good, but not great
26
14%
Ok
12
6%
meh
20
10%
Pessimistic
26
14%
Atari needs to die, then maybe ok
17
9%
 
Total votes : 191

PostAuthor: Heed » Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:43 pm

Ah, yeah, I thought an application under a 64 bit OS would have 8 gigs available as opposed to 4 under 32 bit. But I could have very easily recalled that incorrectly. It's 2 and 4 respectively, then?
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PostAuthor: Heed » Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:58 pm

Here's a question for the Garage Meister:

What's the memory use after load on some of the current Avlis mods?

And the use after say 24 - 48 hrs up?

Since I'm in ballpark scrying mode lets get some current numbers and multiply them by, say, 5.

Take those results, find out where they are in relation to 2 gigs and find out how much of a percentage current Avlis mods would need to shrink to stay under 2 gig usage.

Ver rough, very shotgun, but I'm curious. Might give a bit better idea how severe the problem will be.
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PostAuthor: Orleron » Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:02 pm

Anybody with desktop access wanna look this up? I can't get to the server desktops from work.
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PostAuthor: Gimlor » Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:35 pm

I think it will have a lot to do with how the area is designed.

If the area builder goes off and makes hills and gulleys everywhere, the size will be unusable. If the designer makes the areas more like a NWN1 area with lots of flat space, using the hills only where needed. Im sure the areas will be smaller in size.
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PostAuthor: Vichan Lyonsen » Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:41 pm

I gotta believe that the 50 area number isnt right...in fact I'm willing to bet that it will be possible for mods to have 150, 200 or even more exterior areas. What we dont know is how detailed those areas can be...

but if we are careful...dont model every rock on the ground and every little bump in terrain, I'll bet we can do much more than 50 areas...thats going to be the real challenge, cause you know every builder is going to want make the most exquisitly detailed areas that they can.. and that will most likely be the bane of PW's

in any case if Avlis decides to try to implement a nwn2 version of the world, you will HAVE to use the Overland Map and strategicly choose which exterior areas to build and which to let the overland map represent...

How many areas of civilised area could be eliminated between mikona/elysia...elysia/leor...elysia/deglos... etc..etc.. and be left to overland travel?

True, we wont be able to build exterior areas in the quantity that we have under nwn1, but if planned properly it can probably be pulled off...but it is going to require a lot of planning and forethought.. If you just run off and start building it probably wont fly.
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PostAuthor: Nighthawk4 » Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:48 pm

I voted Optimistic - I feel sure that something worthwhile can be created with NWN2. This is mainly because it is the people - both Team and Players - who make the PW work. If they are right, then a little better scenery is an advantage, but not critical either way. :wink:


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PostAuthor: PlasmaJohn » Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:52 pm

Heed wrote:And the use after say 24 - 48 hrs up?

Between 150Mb and 350Mb depending on how big the mod is and how popular it is.

Since I'm in ballpark scrying mode lets get some current numbers and multiply them by, say, 5.

*snorts* I don't doubt that you're right.
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PostAuthor: downsystem » Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:57 pm

When it comes to duel core, multi processor systems i found this article that says Amd is working on a "reverse hyperthreading" technology that is suppose to allow even games that arent made for a duel core or duel processor system to get better performance from them types of systems.

http://techreport.com/ja.zz?comments=10249

I personally think computer technology improving and the internet speeding up (my internet charter is touting 5 meg service now) is going to really help make this game a viable online world game moding community. Although if im wrong will avlis as it stands now be able to keep on treking along with out biowares support?
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PostAuthor: Krator » Thu Jul 06, 2006 6:21 pm

Positive!

Code: Select all
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
// SetEventHandler
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
// Created By: Brock Heinz - OEI
// Created On: 12/20/05
//
// Description: These commands will allow you to bind any script to the
// to an exisiting event for a given object.
// Arguments:
// oObject - The object to which you want to bind a new script
// iEventID - The event ID which you are binding the script to.
// sScriptName - The name of the script that you want to bind to the event.
// Note that it is valid to pass "" to have this creature ignore
// the event.
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
void SetEventHandler( object oObject, int iEventID, string sScriptName );

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
// GetEventHandler
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
// Created By: Brock Heinz - OEI
// Created On: 12/20/05
//
// Description: Retrieves the name of a script bound to a given event ID
// Arguments
// oObject - The object to which you want to bind a new script
// iEventID - The event ID which you are binding the script to.
//
// Returns: Returns a string with the script name which the object has bound
// to the event. This will be empty if the creature or event ID is
// invalid.
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
string GetEventHandler( object oObject, int iEventID );
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PostAuthor: Heed » Thu Jul 06, 2006 6:45 pm

PlasmaJohn wrote:
Heed wrote:And the use after say 24 - 48 hrs up?

Between 150Mb and 350Mb depending on how big the mod is and how popular it is.

Since I'm in ballpark scrying mode lets get some current numbers and multiply them by, say, 5.

*snorts* I don't doubt that you're right.


Interesting. Yeah, I would say a factor of 10 might be closer. As I said earlier, I think tilesets probably provide more savings since tiles get reused in areas and between areas. A tileset has a fixed amount of walk data (x number of tiles multiplied by the walk data for each tile) whereas height mapped terrain is wholly unique each time it is used. However, the comparison includes indoor areas and is an overestimation since indoor areas will be tilesets in NWN2 and will not increase by the same factor as outdoor areas.

Okay, lets go a factor of 20 for fun. Your lowest usage mod there would take 3 gigs in NWN2. So, you would need a 33% reduction. Your biggest would be 7 gigs and require about a 70% reduction.

I dunno, that doesn't seem too bad to me. The high end takes a big hit, but the lower end comes out not too bad. Couple that with a more condensed design philosophy and good world map usage I don't see it as fatal.

I'm not a big fan of expanse for the sake of conveying scale, myself, so maybe it's just my perspective, but that certainly seems doable to me. Different yes, but not the end.

EDIT: Krator, old news. :P Post the proto for the "popup input box" function -- that one is sweet too. ;)

Might as well do the factor of 10 too:

The low end wouldn't need a change (1.5 gigs). The upper end would be 3.5 gigs and need about a 45% reduction
Last edited by Heed on Thu Jul 06, 2006 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostAuthor: Sarmanos » Thu Jul 06, 2006 6:50 pm

Well its without a doubt people WILL try to make PWs in NWN2 and will likely do whatever they can to find their way around any limits, hardware or coded to put in what they want to. However I don't think a limit on exterior areas should be enough to kill a PW. If anything it would raise my expectations because I will expect that those limited areas you do have will be of high quality and high content. You don't need a billion "travel area" exteriors with little in them except an encounter or two though to have a good PW. It just means you will have to forget a bit of what you did in NWN.
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PostAuthor: Moredo » Thu Jul 06, 2006 6:51 pm

I'm more saddened by the lack of new features, than anything else. :|

I know I've posted this before, and I don't want to sound like a broken record, but I want (and almost expect) to swim and climb and ride and jump and sneak in windows and all that stuff, from a game that's released late 2006.
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PostAuthor: Darkfire » Thu Jul 06, 2006 7:06 pm

Moredo wrote:I'm more saddened by the lack of new features, than anything else. :|

I know I've posted this before, and I don't want to sound like a broken record, but I want (and almost expect) to swim and climb and ride and jump and sneak in windows and all that stuff, from a game that's released late 2006.


yeah, i agree with that. I hate when stuff gets half-assed like that. I wish I was skilled enough, and had enough funds to do this... make a game for the gamers. Stop worrying about those damn little 13 year olds that want ub3r l33t graphics, that they play for 5 minutes, and thats it. Rather than making a HUGE profit off the games, cut some of that profit and make it a better game. Make it better for the PWs, don't rush it, etc. Its a shame...


:(
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PostAuthor: Orleron » Thu Jul 06, 2006 7:16 pm

Over on WFM there's a sizable discussion about how we won't be doing the all encompassing scale approach for NWN2. The overland map will be used and only the "important" areas will actually be made. The NWN1 server is the opposite in that it strives to make one overland area every 50 miles for rural areas, and one area every quarter mile or so for urban areas.

Nevertheless, there is still doubt in my mind. Even with reducing the scale like that, it's still easily conceivable that we'll need more than 50 outside areas.
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PostAuthor: markschouten » Thu Jul 06, 2006 7:19 pm

Am I the only person who doesn't really care about swimming/climbing/jumping/flying? The only thing I would have liked to see as a standard implentation is riding, but all the other things mentioned would require a complete rewrite of the Aurora engine, which would mean that we wouldn't see NWN2 for another 2 years.

Besides, if you really need swimming, climbing or jumping for story purposes you can just script it. ;) It might be half-assed, but it works.
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PostAuthor: downsystem » Thu Jul 06, 2006 7:24 pm

New features would be nice. Someone reacently posted a message that they had figured out how to do horse here on the old nwn1 game engine so i dont see why you couldnt do it for nwn2.

I dont recall ware but their was a article i read i think on the bioware nwn2 forums that said they were thinking it wouldnt take long before modders figured out how to scripted the horses for nwn2.

Plus Isnt this suppose to be a role playing server/ world. Avlis has been pretty darn successfull with out the other features of horses, swimming etc. so far.
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PostAuthor: markschouten » Thu Jul 06, 2006 7:30 pm

Quote: J.E. Sawyer April 14
Hello, my friends. This is mostly a cautionary message for PW builders based on some questions that were asked in the chat last night. Of specific note was a question asking if we had run a module with 300 areas in it.

The answer is not only "no," but "not even in our dreams". It's true that the average gaming rig is a lot beefier today than it was when the original NWN was released. But the complexity of our areas -- both interior and exterior -- is dramatically greater. One consequence is that a NWN2 area tends to have a hefty memory footprint. This is especially true on exteriors, where super texture-layered height-mapped terrain is stuffed full of trees, bushes, and high-detail buildings. We are still in the process of optimizing our data and beautifying areas intelligently, but we're typically looking at 6-9 megs for a mid-sized NWN2 exterior. On the extreme end, big areas run upwards of 20 megs.

This might not seem like that big of a deal on machines that often have 1 or 2 gigs of RAM, but when you throw in ten of these suckers and a bunch of interiors that are all part of the same module, you are on a highway to the proverbial danger zone. Combined with the game's overhead for doing everything else, it's a lot for a server to deal with.

For people playing our "OC" and building adventure modules, none of this should be a big concern. You can chop up your modules into whatever size you want and people can just deal with lugging the party around. For PW builders this may cause logistical problems for how large your modules can be. If you were planning to have a series of areas running continuously from Baldur's Gate to Lathtarl's Lantern (a personal favorite), you will need to have a server forged by the hand of Bane himself. Or maybe twelve 30th level arcanists. Either way, it's a big deal.

I know this is probably less encouraging news than, "Yeah, we're running 500 areas in a single module!" but I figure that letting everyone know now is better than letting you figure it out through trial and error after the game comes out. Lest this come off as a tepid, eye-roll-inducing "temper your expectations" message, let me end with clarity:

NWN2 areas take up a lot of memory. The exteriors take up even more memory. If you are planning to have huge chains (10+) of large exteriors and interiors linked in a single module, it's not going to run smoothly on current hardware.


Medium areas beeing 16*16 and large areas beeing 32*32(I think).
That's not really all that bad, is it? That means that you can about 200 medium-sized exterior areas. Since most areas will be smaller then 16*16, you can get 250-280 areas. Of course, that is with the maximum usable 2gigs of ram in mind, and without the overhead for the other things the server does, but I think that the overheard will be close to NWN1. Add to that the fact that DDR isn't very expensive these days, and it looks like it's still possible to make a semi-large PW.
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PostAuthor: Paco Di B » Thu Jul 06, 2006 7:31 pm

Optimistic.

Where there is a will there is a way.

Stop looking for trouble and enjoy NWN now and when NWN2 arrives we will see how to make it work then. :)
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PostAuthor: Darkfire » Thu Jul 06, 2006 7:31 pm

Orleron wrote:Over on WFM there's a sizable discussion about how we won't be doing the all encompassing scale approach for NWN2. The overland map will be used and only the "important" areas will actually be made. The NWN1 server is the opposite in that it strives to make one overland area every 50 miles for rural areas, and one area every quarter mile or so for urban areas.

Nevertheless, there is still doubt in my mind. Even with reducing the scale like that, it's still easily conceivable that we'll need more than 50 outside areas.


I really like the area's being big. If it wouldn't effect server preformance, I would like them even bigger :D That way, taking a trip to Elysia from Mikona was actually important. It would add to the server being unique, each having their own dynamic culture. (I can't remember the exact word, but them each having their own genre, culture, ... what is it called?)
Whatever word it is, a big server helps keep them seperated.
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PostAuthor: Tesh » Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:47 pm

God I hope that they can optimise the outdoor area walkmeshes better. Last time I did any reading on it the biggest issue was that for any given outdoor area they needed to do 'null walkmeshing' (I think thats what they called it) where if an area was say... 10x10 they needed to make walkmesh data for a 12x12 area so that horizons and graphics in the distance could be included which blew out the memory load in a big way....

Without decent outdoor areas I'll be very saddened, I'm a nut for rangers and am very excited about 3.5 rangers, to the point where I have a concept and rough back story for one, and without a reasonable number of outdoor areas rangers are at a disadvatage to the rogue
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PostAuthor: Vichan Lyonsen » Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:03 am

Tesh wrote:God I hope that they can optimise the outdoor area walkmeshes better. Last time I did any reading on it the biggest issue was that for any given outdoor area they needed to do 'null walkmeshing' (I think thats what they called it) where if an area was say... 10x10 they needed to make walkmesh data for a 12x12 area so that horizons and graphics in the distance could be included which blew out the memory load in a big way....



that extra tile you talk about deals with the skybox for the exact reason you mention...basicly a 1 tile border around each area for the skybox. That needs to be taken into account when building.
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PostAuthor: szabot » Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:05 am

Tesh wrote:Without decent outdoor areas I'll be very saddened, I'm a nut for rangers and am very excited about 3.5 rangers, to the point where I have a concept and rough back story for one, and without a reasonable number of outdoor areas rangers are at a disadvatage to the rogue


Similarly, I love druids, and even when I don't play outdoorsy characters, I still like the outdoor areas more than the city areas and related interiors. Cities, to me, are more boring and also feel less like fantasy to me. It would be a real let-down to me if the outdoors areas have to be passed over by using a world map feature to cross them.
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PostAuthor: Themicles » Fri Jul 07, 2006 1:45 am

From what I've read, PWs in NWN2 will not be any worse off than PWs in NWN1.

We will basically be in the same position of breaking our PWs up into multiple modules, lmiting the size of areas, limiting the size and resource count of the modules, and splitting each module up to run on a seperate machine... or at least seperate thread on a multithreaded system.

The only problem I really see is an increased demand on RAM... Give NWN's RAM demand and affordability of large quantities of good RAM at the time, I'd compare it to the problem with NWN2. Just, many of us can afford more RAM than we could back when NWN launched.

Is it more demanding than NWN1? Sure.
Has hardware advanced since NWN1? Yep.

I voted Good, but not great. It could be better, but some sacrifices must be made to have the engine advances we'll be getting.

I think the big step back will be the amount of available content out of the box. Smaller official creature count... less of everything really. Especially a lack of community content for the first few weeks, or maybe even up to months.
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PostAuthor: Orleron » Fri Jul 07, 2006 3:42 am

Themicles wrote:From what I've read, PWs in NWN2 will not be any worse off than PWs in NWN1.

........


I voted Good, but not great. It could be better, but some sacrifices must be made to have the engine advances we'll be getting.




I think it remains to be seen whether or not this comes true and we are not any better or worse off.

The sacrifices you allude to may require severe changes in vision for a PW like Avlis which is epic in scope and tries to portray many diverse places. For a brand new PW startup, I agree with some of the previous posters that it could be easier to devise workarounds by limiting scope of the setting.


I would also point out that right now we can sometimes squeeze two modules onto a single computer, if at least one of the modules is not too big. That sort of thing would NEVER be possible in NWN2 if the current specs are anywhere near true.

For most PW's, that won't be a problem: You create your PW with 20 or so exterior areas and maybe another 50 interior areas. You make it a single server on a single computer and you're done. Limited scope.

I fear that in Avlis' case, something of that size might not even cover a single neighborhood in the Seven Cities. We would have to link a lot of servers together again, but this time it would be one server per computer AND an uber amount of ram per machine, which we'd have to buy. Over time that won't be too bad, but what you get with 10 linked servers in NWN2 will not be nearly the same as what you get with 10 linked servers in NWN1.

I wonder: How much of our current area layout gets used often? I think the info is in our database actually.
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PostAuthor: Krator » Fri Jul 07, 2006 6:02 am

I wonder: How much of our current area layout gets used often? I think the info is in our database actually.


That is one thing I would be very interested in to hear of.
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