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Recent Updates part II

General discussion about Avlis

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Recent Updates part II

PostAuthor: PlasmaJohn » Tue Jan 03, 2006 1:45 pm

Deider wrote:Just some information on some changes that were just made.

First, a minor one: the recipes for the golem manuals have been altered. More specifically, the gold and material component costs have been reduced. The descriptions of the items have been changed to reflect these changes. Old versions will not show the new desciptions, but they will use the new cheaper recipes.

Now for the big ones:

Loot
Savvy players probably realized that gold drops had been based on the level of the player making the kill or opening the chest. This is no longer the case. Character level is no longer a factor in the amount of gold that drops. However, partying up will substatially increase the amount of gold dropped. This is a departure in realism, admittedly, but it was done to promote partying up.

The list of item drops has been expanded. For example, more than 3 types of arrows now drop. Also, the Rod of Grease bug has been fixed (thanks to PJ!) - you'll find some other rods and wands dropping from now on.

XP
The bonus for parties has been substantially increased, to promote partying up.

Also, the maximum difference between CR and PC level (or average party level, if you are partied up) for which you get XP has been expanded from 7 to 10. That means you get XP for killing creatures that have a CR up to 10 above or below your level.

If you kill a creature whose CR is more than 10 higher than your level, you get minimum XP (1d4+1).

If you kill a creature whose CR is more than 10 lower than your level, you get no XP. This was done to stop rewarding people who were camping spots with fast respawn rates or that spawned many low-level creatures.

Thank you all for the feedback on the XP issue. We now have a much clearer picture of the effect of the change and are in the process of evaluating it. We kindly ask that you no longer discuss party makeup and areas (it was getting pretty spolierish ;)). Fear not, the thread has been moved to a safe place.

If you're seeing some over-the-top loot drops, please send a note to staff@avlis.org.
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PostAuthor: Gurky_Bogglewig » Tue Jan 03, 2006 2:18 pm

Thanks for a concise overview of the changes.
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PostAuthor: Deider » Tue Jan 03, 2006 4:35 pm

First of all, I want to apologize to the playerbase for not announcing the changes before they went into place. I really don't think that would have made any difference, but I know the abrupt change (from a player standpoint - the team discussed the changes for quite awhile) was a shock to many of you.

I'd like to say that I was shocked and apalled by the level of vitriole and the amount of negativity and the lack of faith shown by many of the reactions posted, but to be honest I fully expected that reaction. I guess that comes with being here long enough to have seen it so often. Part of it's the internet - it's easier to say some things when you aren't saying them to someone's face. But I don't know whether to laugh or be disturbed when people who sang our praises in Raves a week ago post that we 'are out to get them,' 'hate epics,' and perhaps the most ludicrous, 'made these changes to help our own PCs.'

Not having access to Rants, I don't know how venomous the personal attacks got there, but something I think everyone should know: while I made the announcement and had the task of actually making the changes to the code, the changes were a team decision. That said, if people want to make personal attacks, make them at me. Perhaps this sounds like a broken record to a lot of you, but the team is composed of volunteers who sacrifice their time. They don't deserve to be shit on by you. If you want to shit on someone, shit on me - I'm The Janitor, I'll just clean it up.

Now, a few words:

RP vs. XP

RP and XP are not mutually exclusive. One thing I like about Avlis, and which I think is one of the keys to its popularity, is that it strikes a middle ground between these two. We aren't a 'pure' RP server, but nor are we a PW where you can hit lvl 40 in a week.

Most of the team are also players. I've been playing more now than I ever have before. And many if not most team members have epic PCs. We all like xp. We all like gaining levels. And we all like to RP. To say those three sentences is not incongruous.

Despite what many people theorized, the purpose of the xp changes was not to hose epics in any way. The purpose was twofold, as I originally posted:

- to stop rewarding people for committing a bannable offense (camping - it's against the rules, look it up :) )

- to reward people for doing something we promote, partying up. Partying up is often referred to as Rule #1.

Notice the word 'powergaming' never appeared. Powergaming wasn't even considered when the changes were discussed.

As I wrote above I expected the reaction that came, so I can't really say I was disappointed by it. Though one thing that saddens me is that the changes to the loot script were completely overshadowed by it. Personally, I think the loot script changes have a much larger impact. I don't think it's an understatement to say that the loot script changes completely alter the economy, and in a good way. But that seems to have gotten lost, which is a real shame. Holy smokes, chests finally respawn! No need to rush to loot them after a reset. People in timezones where servers don't reset often now finally have a chance to loot chests! This huge change for the better has gone mostly unnoticed.

Speaking of changes, the following additional changes have been made:

Loot
- potions now drop in stacks of 2-10 instead of singles

XP
- in many cases the party size of an NPC encounter is taken into account when XP is calculated

- epics (and those partied with them) will gain at least a token amount of xp for killing most creatures

These changes are a direct result of your feedback.

Note: these changes have just been uploaded. They are not live yet. I ask yet again that you be patient and wait for the MCs to import the changes and reset their servers when it is convenient for them to do so.

Lastly, I want to thank everyone who offered constructive criticism. I want to especially thank Nob, who despite my own prediction did not complain :wink: and furthermore helped me test out some of your ideas the very day the original changes went live. To those of you who showed patience and faith in us, thank you very much.

For those of you who lacked those two qualities, for those of you who took stock in three days of inconvenience over three years of service... there is nothing worth saying to you, now and from now on.
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PostAuthor: Arandil » Tue Jan 03, 2006 4:41 pm

Thanks Deider, we'll try and be constructive in the next round of feedback - these sound like very postive changes and I'm gonna powergame my ass off tonight in an effort to thoroughly test them ( crop rats and ants beware!! :wink: ).

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PostAuthor: Katroine » Tue Jan 03, 2006 4:43 pm

Deider wrote:Loot
- potions now drop in stacks of 2-10 instead of singles



Will these stack with existing potions? I seem to recall some potions not stacking but I could be crazy...i.e. not enough coffee.
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PostAuthor: Deider » Tue Jan 03, 2006 4:52 pm

AFAIK all of the potions in the loot table are the stackable kind.

BTW, this change does not go for booze - they'll still drop in singles :)
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PostAuthor: Katroine » Tue Jan 03, 2006 4:54 pm

No six packs!
*shakes fist and goes to rant*

Thanks, I might be thinking of an entirely different thing with the stackable potions, in fact, I likely am.
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PostAuthor: Themicles » Tue Jan 03, 2006 4:55 pm

Deider wrote:BTW, this change does not go for booze - they'll still drop in singles :)


Aww, no stealing drunken half-orc's stashes? Or, what self respecting dwarf DOESN'T carry more than one bottle of booze? :lol:

And I love the first point under your new XP change. I really hope that works out as intended. :) As soon as I see this in on Wilderness, I'll run Themi around the usual places and see what I turn up.
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PostAuthor: krackq » Tue Jan 03, 2006 4:57 pm

Deider wrote:BTW, this change does not go for booze - they'll still drop in singles :)


Can I take this as purposely singling out and excluding my character? *runs off to write a rant* :P :wink:
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PostAuthor: Isengrim » Tue Jan 03, 2006 5:05 pm

Personally, I think the loot script changes have a much larger impact. I don't think it's an understatement to say that the loot script changes completely alter the economy, and in a good way. But that seems to have gotten lost, which is a real shame. Holy smokes, chests finally respawn!


Hey, we didn't discuss it because it's an awesome change! ;) As a natural born whinner, I simply could not give you that pleasure. :P

And thanks for hearing our opinions, the new system looks FAR more reasonable from the description.

YAY for the Team! :) :good: :drink:
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PostAuthor: Moredo » Tue Jan 03, 2006 5:13 pm

:good:

Thumbs up for this change.

On the loot thing, getting hot bolt (d8 :D) makes my old crossbow kick ass again. I love that! Potions in stacks sounds awesome too.
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PostAuthor: Aerill » Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:20 pm

Sounds awesome, thank you! :D

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PostAuthor: Nob » Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:22 pm

Deider wrote:Loot
- potions now drop in stacks of 2-10 instead of singles


*Rolls up sleaves and gets ready to go kill a few more critters.*
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PostAuthor: Starslayer_D » Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:25 pm

Will give my opinion on loot drops afetr I have seen them in action for a week, Deider. XP is easier to see, as you get a message onscreen. When in a party you only pick up the occasional bag... thus, sorry for the lack of feedback so far.
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PostAuthor: g1asgow » Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:30 pm

Looking good, feeling fine.

Thanks to one and all for the hard work and the ever more difficult thought behind it.
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PostAuthor: Li'll Divvil » Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:36 pm

Thanks Deider for the tweaks, at least now we can team up with our students/apprentices/initiates again without fear of them being flummoxed by our presence.

I also apologize for posting that first thread just after the new code went live. I think just a bit over an hour after it went live. I hadn't read the posts and went to play more after logging a few hrs before to celebrate new years with friends and suddenly my char didn't get XP so I thought it was corrupted (700 xp before lvl so I panicked, after working for months to get there).

Unfortunately all the other shocked responses from other player turned that into a rant, whihc was subsequently removed to rants. Irony or poetic justice dictated that i have NO access to rants and I set the "watch topic" flag, so I after it was moved I got all the emails notifying me of responses while I couldn't turn the flag of, since I have no access :).

I guess I'll get used to this over time as well.

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PostAuthor: Darkfire » Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:50 pm

After scrounging through all the unconstructive crap that was in the old post, the new updates for the XP sounds awsome! The loot from chests was already awsome, and the zero xp for n00b spawns sounds good since mostly powergamers were the only epic's to be spending 5 hours a day in beetle caves and will directly effect them without harming the community. Great job Deider! Everything sounds good and I can't wait to get home from school so I can test it out IG! 8)


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PostAuthor: Grunt » Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:52 pm

(This is as of yesterday, will comment more as I get more phat lewt...err... data. Yes data.)

Ferrell Loot: Found one chest that had a couple of things in it, including a +1 kama :shock:

Other chest spots were either no longer there (one spot had 2 bags that were missing), or already raided (bones and such). The raided place, and place I first went to I went back 3-4rl hours later and no repop.

Noticed a few new drops like shocking bolts, and a level 11 craftable potion (only one, because this was before the stack addition)..along with gold bump of about 50% more than prior payouts from the monsters in question (stuff that I could kill effortlessly pretty much)

Got some +1 and +3 kits (a few of each total) which is very appreciated when you don't want to use up a +12 kit :D

Still got a rod of grease and kurathene jade. No drangonari arrows to complete the trifecta of "stuff that stays on the ground" ;) ...but going forward, as I hit areas with more "drop happy" monsters, I can add more to it. Also I'm interested in the "group dynamic" as I was soloing at the time.

XP vs RP: Word. I expounded on this elsewhere...but... word.

XP changes: I think this change (a token xp reward, ie 1xp) will work out great with the other stuff, especially where the high epics I know of (we're talking people 30+ in levels) enjoy travelling with the lower levels. Considering how small the number of peers are at their level range, it's a good thing. Hell, even if it was a 50-50 chance I'd get 1xp from the formerly-0xp-stuff, that would have been cool too

XP and material items (gold and gear) are the toughest conversion to bring over from PnP. In PnP, the DM can throttle XP by encounters, or rewards as well... in a CRPG, a grinder can outgrind almost anything you put in place other than a hard cap for daily XP earned. I appreciate the work that has to go into thinking through a solution, and the work that goes into implementing one.

Things were tweaked after a weekend, that's a fast turnaround. All hail "The Cleaner"*

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PostAuthor: Darkfire » Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:04 pm

Things were tweaked after a weekend, that's a fast turnaround. All hail "The Cleaner"*


+1
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PostAuthor: Arond » Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:07 pm

Thanks for the update on the latest changes. Looking forward to seeing how they work out IG :D

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PostAuthor: p0m » Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:13 pm

Darkfire wrote:
Things were tweaked after a weekend, that's a fast turnaround. All hail "The Cleaner"*


+1


+2.

On another note, Deider I love the new loot system, even if I'm not picking up the usual rods of grease.
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PostAuthor: denor firefly » Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:45 pm

I have a question on the idea of CR versus character class. The CR of a lvl 20 fighter is 15 and the PC is lvl 20. Does the system compare 15 to 20 or 20 to 20?
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PostAuthor: Li'll Divvil » Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:47 pm

On a related note, how do I calculate the CR of my own char?
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PostAuthor: gwydion2 » Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:59 pm

Li'll Divvil wrote:On a related note, how do I calculate the CR of my own char?


Create a copy of your character, levels, stats etc. as an npc in the toolset.
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PostAuthor: Zyndro » Tue Jan 03, 2006 9:08 pm

p0m wrote:
Darkfire wrote:
Things were tweaked after a weekend, that's a fast turnaround. All hail "The Cleaner"*


+1


+2.

On another note, Deider I love the new loot system, even if I'm not picking up the usual rods of grease.


+3.

As for the potions, just yesterday I found a stack of ten haste potions on a single npc. Felt like I hit a jackpot. :D As a player of an epic who doesn't artifice, I mostly look for loot during an adventure, not xp. Was happy with the way things were changed, and still happy with the way they were re-changed. Keep up the good work.
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