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Offical Disquise Guidelines

General discussion about Avlis

Moderators: Nighthawk4, Dungeon Masters

PostAuthor: Vanor » Fri Apr 09, 2004 3:48 am

obsidian wrote:you *emote* pulling your hood forward and trying to keep in the shadows, so at least you could slip away before an alarm is made etc.


Well less chessy and more just not really practical. You could emote it, but then what happens when someone comes walking by... They wouldn't of seen the emote, and wouldn't know you have the hood up.

Does CEP have hoods?


Yes in fact it does have a hood, in fact it's moddled in such a way that it looks like you have the hood pulled down rather low, and it also covers your face in shadows... i.e. it replaces the face with a black mask like thing.
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PostAuthor: Aiquandol » Sat Apr 10, 2004 6:07 am

How would someone treat animal companions discovering a disguised character? You're working with an entirely different set of "strong senses" when worrying about a dog/panter/bear/whatever. You're dealing with scent. It's not something expressible through the NWN engine but should be taken into account for realism.

Animal companions/animal familiars should be able to pick out a disguised person instantly if it's familiar with the person or smelt them before.
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PostAuthor: Dralix » Sat Apr 10, 2004 6:15 am

Recognizing is one thing, telling the master is another. Does your animal companion/animal familiar speak?

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PostAuthor: Scurvy_Platypus » Sat Apr 10, 2004 9:33 am

Mixing in animal companions is needlessly complicating things I belive. Unless somebody on the team overrides me, I would say to use the K.I.S.S. principle.

So no, if you're going to try and find out the identity of somebody, you're going to have to do the footwork yourself.

Otherwise then we have to sit down and debate just how strong each familiar/companions senses are, how long they're going to remember a "familiar" scent or whatever, what it takes for a scent or whatever to become familiar, how the fact that it's familiar is going to be communicated to the master, and on and on and on. Let's just call it good shall we, and leave the familiars/companions out of it?
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PostAuthor: Solrinin » Mon Jun 07, 2004 11:21 pm

I got a few question about disguising:

1) Could you disguise yourself as the opposite gender? e.g. a young rogue decides to act as an elderly woman by tying something to his chest for the appearance of breasts, hunching slightly, and wearing a hooded cloak and masking his voice my making it higher pitched and waver a little.

2) Could you disguise yourself as another player? Like you come across a corpse and decide to steal some distinguishing armor/weapon/jewelry, then if you need to dye your clothing to match there clothing, and try to mimic their voice as best you can?
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PostAuthor: Vichan Lyonsen » Mon Jun 07, 2004 11:58 pm

Solrinin wrote:I got a few question about disguising:

1) Could you disguise yourself as the opposite gender? e.g. a young rogue decides to act as an elderly woman by tying something to his chest for the appearance of breasts, hunching slightly, and wearing a hooded cloak and masking his voice my making it higher pitched and waver a little.


Sorry, I think this would come under the heading of cheesing, you would be trying to RP an effect on your person that cannot be represented in game...How would anyone know you had falsies? you would of course send them a tell.. and they would respond.. I dont see anything, you look like a regular half-orc to me. Only a changeling could pull such a thing off, but in that case they arent disguised as a female.. they are a female.

2) Could you disguise yourself as another player? Like you come across a corpse and decide to steal some distinguishing armor/weapon/jewelry, then if you need to dye your clothing to match there clothing, and try to mimic their voice as best you can?


you certainly could equip yourself out with anothers gear, however if you come across a corpse, how do you even know who he is or what he sounds like? most armor isnt unique enough that you could make yourself out to be a specific person.. and even then anyone who knows the person will recognise that you arent him immediately...IMO this would be borderline.

Disguising, for the most part, is used to conceal your real identity, and not fob yourself off as another person all together.

Anyway, thats this DM's opinion.
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PostAuthor: Bear » Tue Jun 08, 2004 12:09 am

Solrinin wrote:I got a few question about disguising:

1) Could you disguise yourself as the opposite gender? e.g. a young rogue decides to act as an elderly woman by tying something to his chest for the appearance of breasts, hunching slightly, and wearing a hooded cloak and masking his voice my making it higher pitched and waver a little.

2) Could you disguise yourself as another player? Like you come across a corpse and decide to steal some distinguishing armor/weapon/jewelry, then if you need to dye your clothing to match there clothing, and try to mimic their voice as best you can?


Welcome to Avlis. I think the (NON-OFFICIAL) answer to both of your questions is: "Only among friends, or those who are willing to roleplay that with you."

The fundemental problem is that the NWN engine doesn't allow any of these things. Unless you are a shifter you cannot change races, or make yourself look like another player. Even shifters won't let you change gender. Accordingly, there is no way a player can know: 1) if you're doing it; and 2) if you're doing it well.

I suppose you can make an attempt...wear a dress....put on different jewelry. If a character is willing to go along with it great. If they reject your attempt, however, I wouldn't push it.

To be honest... it is very very difficult to keep from blending OOC and IC information. I suspect that more often than not, even if you have the best disguise in the world people will still look for tiny little discrepencies and then quickly conclude you are not who you say you are.

Here are a list of somethings that NWN allows, that you can take to better your disguise:

1. Clothing. Only have one set of clothing for a given persona. NEVER ever wear it other than as that person.

2. Weapons and Gear. Have one set of weapons and gear for a given persona. Never use those weapons or gear other than as that person.

3. Voice. Always *muffle* or *disguise* your voice.

4. Spells and special abilities. Only use certain spells or special abilities with certain personas. For example, I will only summon my shadow companion when dressed for a particular part. I will not summon it under any other circumstance. That way, I can always say... "That wasn't me. I don't know how to call one of those evil things."

5. *Emotes* Emotes fill in the RP on Avlis. It allows you to do all of the things you couldn't normally show. Use this to your advantage. Frex, *walks with a limp*, *coughs uncontrollably*, or *scratches leg repeatedly*. If you do these as only one persona... and never in any other circumstance... it helps folks know that you are in disguise and builds a good case for keeping you under wraps.

Have fun,

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PostAuthor: Ricewind » Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:30 am

So, how would distinctive appearance fit in? I would think that people who are rather plain looking would have an easier job of disguising themselves, than say the most beautiful woman in the city? Should really high (or really low) charisma make it easier to recognize someone?

Maybe the further away from 10 the charisma stat is, the easier it is to spot a disguise? Very handsome or beautiful people tend to be remembered. I can think of a few people that I only saw in passing that tend to stick in my mind. :)

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PostAuthor: Bear » Tue Jun 08, 2004 2:16 am

Ricewind wrote:So, how would distinctive appearance fit in? I would think that people who are rather plain looking would have an easier job of disguising themselves, than say the most beautiful woman in the city? Should really high (or really low) charisma make it easier to recognize someone?

Maybe the further away from 10 the charisma stat is, the easier it is to spot a disguise? Very handsome or beautiful people tend to be remembered. I can think of a few people that I only saw in passing that tend to stick in my mind. :)


The problem with this (and a lot of the more detailed suggestion) is that it just takes too much effort. I wouldn't count on anything that an opposing player cannot recognize without any thought whatsoever. (clothing, helms, emotes). Just keep it simple.

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PostAuthor: Solrinin » Tue Jun 08, 2004 2:19 am

thanks for the replies, the reason I asked about the disguise of another person would be that someone has upset you about something, say they stole your equipment, and you want to get back at them by following them around for a while and decide to get them in trouble other people or the authorities by stealing/killing a few people and intentionally getting noticed. :twisted:
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PostAuthor: CPU » Tue Jun 08, 2004 2:52 am

Bear wrote:The fundemental problem is that the NWN engine doesn't allow any of these things. Unless you are a shifter you cannot change races, or make yourself look like another player. Even shifters won't let you change gender. Accordingly, there is no way a player can know: 1) if you're doing it; and 2) if you're doing it well. Blah, blah, blah...


If I'm not mistaken you didn't mean to write, "Shifter," as in, the Prestige Class in all that above. I think you meant to say, "Changeling." And Changelings DO allow you to change sexes. It's limited, but it can be done.
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PostAuthor: Merlik » Tue Jun 08, 2004 6:00 am

Don't know if anyone said this or not, i didn't read all the posts, but what if everyone didn't list a name at character creation and just used the name fields for a shot two word description of their character, or Maybe Elf Commoner :P Ok, that would get out of hand i guess. But I would love to have "Paladin of Gorethar" over my head :) And the only way to know my name is to ask.
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PostAuthor: Gairus » Tue Jun 08, 2004 6:40 am

Perhaps not individuals, but you could still do a hell of a lot of damage to the reputations of the less common PC races, were you so inclined. IC opinions are often formed by single anecdotes after all.

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PostAuthor: Lithiun » Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:02 am

honestly I have a question.

I can see when you are not fighting that a disquise (changing clothes, whatever) would be considered fair. But when you try to use this for your own advantage are you not pretending to have an ability you do not. This seems to be called cheezing, but I could not find a definition for cheezing on the server.

From most of the posts in this topic, it seems that the general consensus is to disquise yourself correctly takes a combination of many abilities and thus I think should be a seperate skill. It is addressed in the players handbook (only have the 2nd edition) and refered to as a skill.

Anyway, my question is. If you are trying to disquise yourself to gain an advantage over another PC is this not cheezing?

I see quite a few complaints of metagaming when the disguiser 's attempts are not humored.

Now if a DM is involved, of course whatever they say goes and I can see that in some situations this would be very appropriate, given that a DM decideds the disguise is good enough.

But otherwise it really just seems plain silly, there is no way to tell if your disguise is any good against the PC you are tryig to fool.

I'm pretty sure that if I tried to diquise myself in RL most people I know would recognize me. If I tried to kill someone out in the woods and then run away, change my clothes and return an hour later they are going to know who I am. I mean really, they are obviously looking specifially for me and I still weigh the same, walk the same, . . . .


Now I am new here and if the general feeling is that if one changes their clothes and generally claims to have disguised themselves to gain an advantage over my character, then they are in fact disguised, then I'll play along. But you better tell me because I'm sure I will not notice.

Well unless Gortog starts wearing a sunhat and dress. But then I'd be so busy laughing, my PC would be doing the naked run well before I got off the floor. :lol:

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PostAuthor: JollyOrc » Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:11 am

Let me recap the discussion, although my statement is just what I remember of it, not a team ruling :) :

Disguising is something tricky. There is no skill for it in NWN, so formally NO ONE could do it, which is silly. So we have to work around that.

Those who are disguising themselves should make a visibly effort. Emote the hell out of yourself, stating that you are trying to alter your voice, maybe starting "new" nervous habits, etc. A polite Tell stating that you are disguised, and perhaps how could help too. The key here is not yelling "I'm disguised ssshole", but staying nice and polite.

Disguising yourself is prone to cheesing, but if done correctly, it has a chance of being a) successful and b) an enrichment to the roleplay on Avlis.
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PostAuthor: Khaelindra » Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:27 am

My take on people trying to use disguise against me: if they make clear they are disguised, i'd like to let myself be convinced by a bluff-check. It's THE skill to convince others you're something you're not. I can't force anyone to make a Bluff-check, but on the other hand if they don't then they can't force ME to fall for the disguise. I expect the emoting and RP on their side to make the ATTEMPT to disguise themselves, but the SUCCESS of me letting my character be fooled by it is dependent on whether they can actually convince me they are not who they really are, i.e. bluff their way past my perception.

This also removes most of the other questions/obstacles about disguising. If a human male wishes to pretend he's an elven female and he shows he has Bluff 40 (for example), i'm happy to let him fool me. However, if some guy with CHA 8 and no effort put in bluff tries to impersonate someone else, i'll be damned if i fall for it, no matter how hard he emotes things. Essentially in the last example, he'd be RP?ng his complete lack of misleading skills very badly, and i wouldn't ignore that by going along in the disguise.

Same goes in negotiations/dealings with Persuade. People who throw about wonderful colourful stories trying to make their case and RP very powerful and convincingly while they have total Persuade of -1 won't get anything done with me, as essentially they'd be RP?ng their lack of social skill very badly.
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PostAuthor: Gortog » Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:31 am

Lithiun wrote:
Well unless Gortog starts wearing a sunhat and dress. But then I'd be so busy laughing, my PC would be doing the naked run well before I got off the floor. :lol:


He tried to put a burlap sack over his head once and walk by Elf Gate... the disguise lasted about three minutes. :wink:
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PostAuthor: kombinat » Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:41 am

In my opinion... there's two different things here... disguising who you are, and disguising yourself as something that you are not.

Disguising who you are is easy. It really is. Helmet on your head, gloves on your hands and a change of clothes is all it takes if someone hasn't seen you wear that before... anyone can tell you're male/female, human/elf/halfling, but it is next to impossible to tell who the person is. You can also very easily tell that someone is TRYING to hide who they are. It does not take skill to wear a helmet and change your clothes to something unusual, unless you have a very distinctive feature such as a missing leg or three heads.

Pretending you're someone you're not, or something you are not, is bloody hard and takes a lot of skill. It requires talent and training. An elf pretending to be a human or vice versa is extremely difficult. Pretending you are someone that someone else knows, a celebrity perhaps, is very difficult especially if you don't already look very similar to them. Trying to hide the fact that you're in disguise is very difficult.
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PostAuthor: JollyOrc » Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:50 am

kombinat wrote:In my opinion... there's two different things here... disguising who you are, and disguising yourself as something that you are not.


Important distinction indeed.
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PostAuthor: Khaelindra » Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:11 am

JollyOrc wrote:
kombinat wrote:In my opinion... there's two different things here... disguising who you are, and disguising yourself as something that you are not.


Important distinction indeed.


It's the distinction between disguising (the narrow definition; concealing your traits with a guise) and pretending.

Disguising in this definition is usually only hard against people who know you very well (so who not only know how you normally dress, but also would IC'ly know how you build your sentences, your use and pronaunciation of words, how you walk, the way you hold your head when you listen...all the little telltale things that make it possible to recognise someone in almost-dark circumstances if you are very familiar with them). Especially spellcasting while disguised makes that very hard, as spellcasting takes the utmost of concentration and putting focus and power in your words, hampering any effort to for instance put a hiss in your voice. If however someone you only know superficially does that, he'd have little trouble not triggering a description that would lead back to him. After all, you have no reference material to put it against to even see he is purposefully in disguise instead of just well-covered up, and what the original is like.

Pretending is harder both with people who know the real you AND people who know whoever/whatever you're trying to pretend to be. For instance, Divinia trying to pretend to be a Reaver would have a hard time pulling that off both in presence of people who know her well AND in presence of people who are intimately familiar with how a 'real' Reaver would be like...like other Reavers. If someone came to Divinia pretending to be Eldraea, i'd allow them a bluff-check to convince me, but it would be a VERY hard one. In the interest of RP-ing i'd still allow for the attempt though, as i feel that specifically talented rogues/bards who have affinity with that kind of action (invested the skill points to be able to do so in lieu of putting them in the standard engine-check-intensive skills) might and should actually have a chance to pull it off.
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PostAuthor: Precis Riddell » Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:52 am

Commenting on Khaleindra's post...

My PC is evel 2, and has been for months. This is fine; she's not meant to have any skill im combat. But, no matter how much socializing she's done in the months I've played her, I'll never get to put any points into her persuade and bluff. When, on paper, my proficiency with social skills is determined mostly by how many monsters I kill, I'm not leaving my persuasiveness up to a dice roll. I put max points into persuade and bluff, because I want to make sure I'm at least not cheesing, but if anyone but a DM asks me for a check, I'm still just going to tell them to decide for themselves based on what my character has said.

As for disguise... Rather a pain in the ass. It would be a little easier if Avlis had a description-changer, so you could write a new description on the fly (relatively conveiently; you still have to log out and in to do it) to represent a disguise. Even then, though, i know a lot of people tend to not read descriptions. I personally find it very frustrating when people do this, because the in-game models look nothing like my character, or what i imagine other characters to look like. A description is my only means of conveying things that someone just walking by, who has not read my previous emotes, will not know, including RP'ed disguises of almost any kind. Nothing really to be done about it, though, and some people care a lot less about descriptions.

this is rambling a lot and i am tired and cannot type so well

goodnight. good luck with your disguises and fake old-woman costume.
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PostAuthor: methuselah » Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:17 am

I like everything that has been said so far but one thing bugs me.

The other night one of my characters saw someone bash the alchemist apparatus in Mikona and promply gave chase to him.
A few moments later he ran into the same character in the same outfit and confronted him.

At which point I was told :
"That must have been my twin brother. He's always up to no good."

Whats the stand on this stuff? If my character has seen him close in the same outfit with weapon, chased him, and spotted him later.
Would believe or even fathom a possibility of a twin. Considering that the character is wearing the exact same outfit, not wearing a helmet, and just stating he/she has an 'Evil' Twin.

I personally did not think that this was acceptable but was in no condition to argue about it at the time. I have no problem accepting this if that is what the current consensus decides, but if not, what are the rules for characters that do have twins, and how would we know? Sending tells constantly to give people information like:

"My character has a twin"

When the person they are trying to fool has never seen them to begin with to be just plain lame. Not to mention tells are usually OC and they tend to detter me from my RP experience as I try to saty IC as much as I possibly can. (though I do use tells for some things I tend to try to avoid them as much as possible:wink: )
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PostAuthor: kombinat » Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:23 am

methuselah wrote:At which point I was told :
"That must have been my twin brother. He's always up to no good."


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PostAuthor: JollyOrc » Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:46 am

One word: Costas LaBlack.

Go search the tavern boards :D
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PostAuthor: Heronimous Fox » Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:50 am

methuselah wrote:I like everything that has been said so far but one thing bugs me.

The other night one of my characters saw someone bash the alchemist apparatus in Mikona and promply gave chase to him.
A few moments later he ran into the same character in the same outfit and confronted him.

At which point I was told :
"That must have been my twin brother. He's always up to no good."


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