Server Totals
Deglos - (0)
Le'Or - (0)
Ferrell - (0)
Elysia - (0)
M'Chek - (0)
Mikona - (0)
Wilderness - (0)
Visimontium - (0)
Underdark - (0)
Total players: 0
Gallery

Links Menu

Aligment Cookies

Forum for posing direct questions to the Avlis Team. Purpose is to facilitate Team/Player communication.

Moderators: Nighthawk4, Dungeon Masters

Aligment Cookies

PostAuthor: Starslayer_D » Tue Jan 13, 2004 2:46 pm

As we all know, loosing law point or Good point due to heat of the event mishaps is fairly easy (anoy a few guards and commoners in mikona due to spell or spite mishaps, and you know what I mean).

What is extremely rare (2-3 instances for all ym characetrs in 15 months of playing, eg.) is that DM's hand out aligment points for actions taken by characters of mine. And I doupt that it's different for others.

It is of course a bit more work-intensive then handing out XP for good RP, but aligment is part of RP as well, and someone behaving lawfully should be moving to Law gradually, and someone behaving good to good etc. (and not only by spam-clicking on certain auto-quests).

Thus I am asking if the DM's could consider payinga ttention to this kind of 'consequences for actions taken' a bit more in the future?

Starslayer_D
Master Sage
 
Posts: 5182
Joined: Thu Oct 24, 2002 7:35 pm
Location: Germany (+1 GMT)

PostAuthor: Sindol » Tue Jan 13, 2004 3:00 pm

I always try to pay attention to this, unfortunately the hard part is that I feel the change is always gradually, like you already said. I run a quest for what? An hour? Two? That usually isn't enough to warrant a shift, unless the character makes some extreme statements/actions. Also alignment is something you often forget to look at in the heat of battle.

What usually helps: drop the DM(s) you see most often a line that your character is trying to change his/her alignment and in what direction. That is usually enough for me to observe the actions of that character with a bit more focus on the alignment, which will mean a faster shift.
So much fun,
yet so little time to enjoy it.
- Sindol
User avatar
Sindol
Team Member; Retired with Honors
 
Posts: 6487
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 4:23 pm
Location: Nijmegen - Netherlands (GMT+1)

PostAuthor: Vichan Lyonsen » Tue Jan 13, 2004 3:03 pm

I know of at least two PC's on Avlis activly seeking to change their alignments, in each case because the direction the PC has gone is different from where they started and would be reflected in their Alignment.

It is more work intensive and by the nature of it slower IMO...I just dont see large leaps of more than 5 points in the law/chaos or good/evil axis being likely at any given time.

I can see alignment points as a viable alternative to XP cookies in certain situations.
User avatar
Vichan Lyonsen
CCC
CCC
 
Posts: 3602
Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2003 5:23 am
Location: San Diego PST >GMT-8<
Timezone: pacific

PostAuthor: WrathOG777 » Tue Jan 13, 2004 3:33 pm

Well, some folks deserve these shift even if they are not intentionaly seeking to change their alignment. Gradual is good, but if killing one commoner is 5 points. 2 points for a single theft of a single item. 1point just for being the group of someone performing one of that actions even if you are somewhere else. 1 point at a time for seeing something as a DM is more than justified.
User avatar
WrathOG777
Master Sage
 
Posts: 5326
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2003 4:17 pm
Location: Abyss (GMT 2200-0500)

PostAuthor: Orleron » Tue Jan 13, 2004 3:37 pm

It would be nice if DM's could increase the "alignment cookies"... figure a cookie anywhere from 2 to 5 points. 10 points for something that's seriously out of whack... like a Blackguard helping an old lady across the street or something.

The main reason why we don't do this, is because, as the DM's said, it takes a lot of observation. When a DM changes a character's alignment, they'd darn well better have some evidence to back it up. I'm sure you guys don't want any unjustified alignment shifts to your PC's. Be careful what you ask... he he.

Also, I'll say this here so you can use it as a reference and I don't have to keep repeating it:

The reason why there are not too many lawful or good alignment points given out in scripted quests is to prevent alignment abuse.


We take alignment seriously here, or at least we should. If your character loots a few houses and gets chaotic, and then all they had to do is perform a quest a few time to gain back the lawful points, then Avlis becomes nothing but a MUD, where alignment is just a number that determines what uber gear you can use. Hell, when I used to MUD, I had 2 or 3 sets of gear. One for good. One for neutral. One for evil. Some gear sets were better in some areas than others, so before going to that area, I'd shift my alignment so I can wear the gear for it.... kill a few drow to get good.... kill a few commoners to get evil, etc.

That is NOT going to happen on Avlis. No way. Thus, the design of this world is such that your alignment will tend slowly towards chaotic and evil unless you watch what you do. MOST shifts towards law and good will be due to DM's. There's a couple of small quests you can do to get a point here or there, but they are rare.

Bottom line: Be careful about your alignment, because it's purposely hard to improve it.
"Truth has no form."
--Idries Shah

World of Avlis Page

Avlis Project FAQ
User avatar
Orleron
World Advisor, Co-founder
World Advisor, Co-founder
 
Posts: 14904
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2001 9:48 pm
Timezone: GMT-5

PostAuthor: Vichan Lyonsen » Tue Jan 13, 2004 3:50 pm

The main reason why we don't do this, is because, as the DM's said, it takes a lot of observation. When a DM changes a character's alignment, they'd darn well better have some evidence to back it up. I'm sure you guys don't want any unjustified alignment shifts to your PC's. Be careful what you ask... he he.


This is a very good point...Clerics on Avlis ...for example...are supposed to be the exact alignment of the deity they follow, it would be a large group of very unhappy clerics if alignment shifts were easy and anything more than minute changes were made.

I still think that alignment cookies are a worthy idea, though they should be sparingly applied.
User avatar
Vichan Lyonsen
CCC
CCC
 
Posts: 3602
Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2003 5:23 am
Location: San Diego PST >GMT-8<
Timezone: pacific

PostAuthor: KinX » Tue Jan 13, 2004 4:13 pm

Vichan Lyonsen wrote:This is a very good point...Clerics on Avlis ...for example...are supposed to be the exact alignment of the deity they follow, it would be a large group of very unhappy clerics if alignment shifts were easy and anything more than minute changes were made.

I still think that alignment cookies are a worthy idea, though they should be sparingly applied.


And with the conversion scripts in, you could theoretically follow one god one day, then follow a different god another day. Kinda silly
Never argue with an idiot, they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience

Image

This statement is false
User avatar
KinX
Elder Sage
 
Posts: 4968
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 2:53 pm
Timezone: GMT +1

PostAuthor: Dralix » Tue Jan 13, 2004 4:23 pm

KinX wrote:And with the conversion scripts in, you could theoretically follow one god one day, then follow a different god another day. Kinda silly


I haven't completed one of the conversion quests yet so I have to ask ... is this true? I mean, does the quest basically amount to "tell NPC you want to follow god X and poof"? I guess I assumed that there would be more to it than that, but I'm basing this on experience from a MUD where religious affiliation was all done post character creation, and only after you proved yourself worthy to the PC leaders of the church. Different game, different rules.

I guess the question here is how much RP do the conversion quests involve?

Dralix
Silver Contributor
 
Posts: 4764
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 6:08 pm
Location: FTP

PostAuthor: Sindol » Tue Jan 13, 2004 4:26 pm

Dralix wrote:I guess the question here is how much RP do the conversion quests involve?


At the moment the only thing you have to do is talk to the appropriate priest and presto: you're converted. Maybe this will be expanded in the future to some real quests, but for now we're just glad to have the code for setting deities working in game before we update to HotU.
So much fun,
yet so little time to enjoy it.
- Sindol
User avatar
Sindol
Team Member; Retired with Honors
 
Posts: 6487
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 4:23 pm
Location: Nijmegen - Netherlands (GMT+1)

PostAuthor: WrathOG777 » Tue Jan 13, 2004 5:06 pm

Sindol wrote:
Dralix wrote:I guess the question here is how much RP do the conversion quests involve?


At the moment the only thing you have to do is talk to the appropriate priest and presto: you're converted. Maybe this will be expanded in the future to some real quests, but for now we're just glad to have the code for setting deities working in game before we update to HotU.


You must also be the appropriate alignment. That is a quest in itself.
User avatar
WrathOG777
Master Sage
 
Posts: 5326
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2003 4:17 pm
Location: Abyss (GMT 2200-0500)

PostAuthor: Starslayer_D » Tue Jan 13, 2004 6:04 pm

That was what I was suggesting: Gradual cookies, like 1 pt in teh appropiate direction for behavior.

If someone helps chase down law breakers, palys judge, investigator and jurry, and thus comes to your attention, give him +1 law from time to time.

If someone constantly iddly stands by while evil acts happen, give him a shift to evil.

If someone goes out of his way to do good things, a +1 shift to good may be appropiate. This won't change an aligment radical, but over time one can meet an aligment title.. or not.

I am not asking for *boom* 10 pt shifts, and at the time getting that one just for being in the same group as someone raisinga dead commoner was a bit.. inapropiate... it just stuck in my mind as one of three times this happened to em at all (other was +3 chaotic for icestorming chests in a farm house repeatedly, and +5 law for lot of intrigue handled the lawfull way... ) And I once heard of it being contemblated that several onlookers who simply let Amonien play accuser, judge and jury in one might be in for a point or two of evil for non-action.

Starslayer_D
Master Sage
 
Posts: 5182
Joined: Thu Oct 24, 2002 7:35 pm
Location: Germany (+1 GMT)

PostAuthor: Actually » Tue Jan 13, 2004 6:08 pm

Orleron wrote:Bottom line: Be careful about your alignment, because it's purposely hard to improve it.


Poor choice of words here, Bossman Orleron. I can as easily as I want make myself more Good, more Evil, or more Chaotic. In fact, since you made your post about clerics and alignments, I've SPECIFICALLY changed the alignment of both of my standard PC's to fit what it needed to be, one more Chaotic and the other more Good. Fifty points of alignment shift for each of them. Why is Lawful, or even Good, considered an improvement? :P

Bye Now,
Jerry Cornelius - Moral Relativism.
Everything I need to know in life, I learned from being an alcoholic.

Actually
Sage
 
Posts: 1823
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2002 10:11 pm
Location: Red Zone: Cuba

PostAuthor: WrathOG777 » Tue Jan 13, 2004 7:01 pm

If a DM gave the same character 1 pt of alignment for a RP action every single day it would still take a month and a half for a full alignment shift. That sounds gradual to me.

Considering DM attention rate to the common character. 1 pt shift for every roleplayed alignment based action a DM noticed would take folks months to get even a one step change.

This also would address folks that want to play one way, but do quests to get the alignment they want, which is drasticaly different then their roleplayed personality. On the other hand there are folks roleplaying their butts off trying to be a sword of Toran, but no DMs are shifting folks so they are chaotic forever.
User avatar
WrathOG777
Master Sage
 
Posts: 5326
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2003 4:17 pm
Location: Abyss (GMT 2200-0500)

PostAuthor: choraldances » Tue Jan 13, 2004 7:08 pm

*Takes notes*

Good input.
User avatar
choraldances
Uber Posting Whor3
 
Posts: 13707
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 11:36 pm
Location: Stuck in what feels like Arborea GMT -7

PostAuthor: Orleron » Tue Jan 13, 2004 7:10 pm

@Actually:
Because when you improve something you make it "more good", hence I loosely applied the term to alignment. By the same token, it's easier to deteriorate your alignment.
"Truth has no form."
--Idries Shah

World of Avlis Page

Avlis Project FAQ
User avatar
Orleron
World Advisor, Co-founder
World Advisor, Co-founder
 
Posts: 14904
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2001 9:48 pm
Timezone: GMT-5

PostAuthor: WrathOG777 » Tue Jan 13, 2004 7:17 pm

Err, that sword example is fictional. I was just pulling an example out of my ass. I donot personaly know of any chaotic swords that are really trying to be lawful.
User avatar
WrathOG777
Master Sage
 
Posts: 5326
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2003 4:17 pm
Location: Abyss (GMT 2200-0500)

PostAuthor: Aloro » Tue Jan 13, 2004 9:36 pm

Sindol wrote:
Dralix wrote:I guess the question here is how much RP do the conversion quests involve?


At the moment the only thing you have to do is talk to the appropriate priest and presto: you're converted. Maybe this will be expanded in the future to some real quests, but for now we're just glad to have the code for setting deities working in game before we update to HotU.


Right now it's not a quest to convert - it's a choice, based on fulfilling the requirements for the deity in question. We'd really like everyone to roleplay this out, as conversion shouldn't be a casual thing, but there are as yet no quests to do this, nor are any such quests currently planned. Why not? Well, there are 40 Avlissian gods right now... that's a lot of quests to build. Instead, we're trusting that PCs will roleplay out the conversion, and free the builders to put in other content that has been requested (e.g. PrC quests).

- Aloro
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn wrote:The meaning of earthly existence lies, not as we have grown used to thinking, in prosperity, but in the development of the soul.
User avatar
Aloro
Team Member; Retired with Honors
 
Posts: 12810
Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2002 5:11 am
Location: Rainbow's End

PostAuthor: Orleron » Tue Jan 13, 2004 9:40 pm

:shock:
We have 40 gods? :shock:
"Truth has no form."
--Idries Shah

World of Avlis Page

Avlis Project FAQ
User avatar
Orleron
World Advisor, Co-founder
World Advisor, Co-founder
 
Posts: 14904
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2001 9:48 pm
Timezone: GMT-5

PostAuthor: Dralix » Tue Jan 13, 2004 9:52 pm

Aloro wrote:Right now it's not a quest to convert - it's a choice, based on fulfilling the requirements for the deity in question. We'd really like everyone to roleplay this out, as conversion shouldn't be a casual thing, but there are as yet no quests to do this, nor are any such quests currently planned. Why not? Well, there are 40 Avlissian gods right now... that's a lot of quests to build. Instead, we're trusting that PCs will roleplay out the conversion, and free the builders to put in other content that has been requested (e.g. PrC quests).


I think that is a perfectly reasonable request of the PCs, and is in fact why Dralix hasn't just walked over to Mikona and converted to Dagath.

Well, that and the fact that I haven't played him much since before Christmas. Or played at all for that matter. Why did I go and buy C3C and why am I actually playing it?

Dralix
Silver Contributor
 
Posts: 4764
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 6:08 pm
Location: FTP

PostAuthor: Malathyre » Tue Jan 13, 2004 10:04 pm

It would be really nice if someone catalogued the deities into a nice Access or Excel sheet, with such things as their name, alignment, areas of influence (what they care primarily about), and a very brief description. Would there be any interest in something like that?

Hmm...I guess if there is any interest in this, I would be volunteering for it, unless someone more qualified wants to... :?:
"The stars predict tomorrow you'll wake up, do a bunch of stuff, and then go back to sleep!"--Your Horoscope for Today, Weird Al Yankovic
User avatar
Malathyre
Sage
 
Posts: 2081
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2003 8:47 pm
Location: Michigan, U.S.A. (GMT-5)

PostAuthor: Fuzz » Tue Jan 13, 2004 10:05 pm

Orleron wrote:The reason why there are not too many lawful or good alignment points given out in scripted quests is to prevent alignment abuse.


Also fits with the old addage that evil is the quicker and easier path. It's easier to destroy than to build, and thus the whole thing withte Dark Side in Star Wars being the temptation for power faster and easier.

Makes sense, and really tests a good/lawful char's devotion.
<Sili> I've seen septic tanks with less shit in them than Fuzz.

<Ronnin> damm not even a kiss??
<Chasmania> Kiss Fuzz? I'd rather fellate a goat.

<Chasmania> there are many roads to Rome..they just picked a shit filled alley full of scabby hookers and bums.


The shape of things to come...
User avatar
Fuzz
Elder Sage
 
Posts: 4649
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2003 4:36 am
Location: Kayvareh

PostAuthor: Aloro » Tue Jan 13, 2004 10:29 pm

Orleron wrote::shock:
We have 40 gods? :shock:


There are more every day, seems like - no, wait, there ARE two new ones today. :P

Heh, yeah, it's a lot - trust me, I know...

Malathyre wrote:It would be really nice if someone catalogued the deities into a nice Access or Excel sheet, with such things as their name, alignment, areas of influence (what they care primarily about), and a very brief description. Would there be any interest in something like that?


Something like the Deific Chart?

- Aloro
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn wrote:The meaning of earthly existence lies, not as we have grown used to thinking, in prosperity, but in the development of the soul.
User avatar
Aloro
Team Member; Retired with Honors
 
Posts: 12810
Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2002 5:11 am
Location: Rainbow's End

PostAuthor: Malathyre » Tue Jan 13, 2004 10:43 pm

Aloro wrote:Something like the Deific Chart?

- Aloro


Yeah, that'll do...that's been updated since the last time I looked at...I forgot it existed. Very nice. :D
"The stars predict tomorrow you'll wake up, do a bunch of stuff, and then go back to sleep!"--Your Horoscope for Today, Weird Al Yankovic
User avatar
Malathyre
Sage
 
Posts: 2081
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2003 8:47 pm
Location: Michigan, U.S.A. (GMT-5)

PostAuthor: Vian » Wed Jan 14, 2004 2:11 am

I give these out quite often actually... sometimes I forget though.

The other thing is to do an alignment shift not only do you ahve to check the PC's alignment but you have use your dm wand to change it.. it's kinda cumbersome to do.. which most of you wouldn't see unless you are a DM (of course you could use the console commands :p)

V~
User avatar
Vian
Team Member; Retired with Honors
 
Posts: 2719
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2002 3:17 am

PostAuthor: Quiz001 » Wed Jan 14, 2004 1:29 pm

Just like to add a little note here - over the last few days my character has been doing something out of whack, and was recently rewarded by an alignment shift of 10 points towards evil. When it happened I nearly fell on the floor, I mean 10 points for taking a job!! Then I thought about it, and realized it was completely justified for the level of what I'd done (if not a little kind!). I think that an alignment shift should not be constrained by points amounts (ie 5 max), but as was the case here, should only be guided by the action that caused it. Whilst at the time I was reeling a bit from the shock, I'd like to applaud the DM that chose to award that shift (on Hala btw).

Quiz001
Scholar of Fools
 
Posts: 479
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 10:18 am
Location: UK

Next

Return to The Avlis Project: Ask the Team

Who is online

Registered users: Auriane, Bing [Bot], silverfields2