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PostAuthor: Vergilius » Mon Jan 12, 2004 6:57 pm

Orleron wrote:Therefore, when a DM is too stingy and giving out too little, we really don't worry about that and just let them do it, because that's something that won't exactly mess up the playerbase like the other things will.


Thats cool then.

Well, this thread has at least been useful feedback for them then.

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PostAuthor: Khaelindra » Mon Jan 12, 2004 6:58 pm

choraldances wrote:They expect a "Chest" with goodies.


Damn, you bring out the most painful memory about treasure again. It goes somewhat like this:

A group of about 7/8 persons does a job for a gold dragon that's sitting along the Mikona road. While the group is returning, Jad (DM) places a chest filed with nice goodies, lots of misc. items, potions, gold, in short a true dragon's hoard, next to the dragon and removes the plot obstacles around it. And i mean FILLED, there must have been about 11 pages...

Along comes an annoying thief, who totally ignores the dragon next to it and sees the chest. He can't open it, so he smashes it (Jad hadn't made it plot). Chest disappears, is replaced by a "remains"-bag containing the items...see it coming?

Indeed we see the guy, tell him this was not the idea, he got some hints by the gold dragon he should put whatever he took back but ignores it, hussle, fight, discussion...oh my...remains bag gone.

Everything was gone due to someone so greedy he couldn't resist ignoring an ancient gold dragon to get at the loot meant for those who had completed the quest. It wasn't for my personal gain, as most stuff was lowlevel nice-to-haves, but i know several VERY disappointed people after that event.

Still, we should have opicked the stuff up before arguing. AARGH! :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll: :?
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PostAuthor: Nob » Mon Jan 12, 2004 7:00 pm

Khaelindra wrote:
White-Raven wrote:Should be interesting hear what other DMs in other CoPap worlds give out? Have heard latley of pretty high items, like +5 rings/amulets etc for hard Dmed events in some worlds.. I have sent a message to the owner of that world about that.


All worlds grow, and maybe they give out a bit more to draw players as well as DM's who try to give neat loot.


While I can understand wanting a larger playerbase, this is totally the wrong way to do it.

The CoPaP articles exist for a reason, fragrantly disregarding them for the sake of attracting players from another server is rather stupid and against the spirit, I'd think.

I'm getting a little tired of hearing the excuse that a growing world needs to have "neat DM loot" to get by and attract players.

As for rewards, I think something that'd be just as interesting as unlocking PrC's would be handing players dyes of their choice. Let them customize some clothing or armor as recognition of what they've done.
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PostAuthor: Starslayer_D » Mon Jan 12, 2004 7:00 pm

please tell me how many evards you plan on casting.. that's 50 charges... that's allmost more then total heal potions used by amonien in her avlis life.

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PostAuthor: Ashlynn » Mon Jan 12, 2004 7:05 pm

Nob wrote:As for rewards, I think something that'd be just as interesting as unlocking PrC's would be handing players dyes of their choice. Let them customize some clothing or armor as recognition of what they've done.



*thinks of a certain helmet*
I would *soooooo* love that.... 8)

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PostAuthor: Vergilius » Mon Jan 12, 2004 7:05 pm

Starslayer_D wrote:please tell me how many evards you plan on casting.. that's 50 charges... that's allmost more then total heal potions used by amonien in her avlis life.


No clue who this is directed towards, nor what it has to do with the topic at hand.

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PostAuthor: Khaelindra » Mon Jan 12, 2004 7:38 pm

Vergilius wrote:
Starslayer_D wrote:please tell me how many evards you plan on casting.. that's 50 charges... that's allmost more then total heal potions used by amonien in her avlis life.


No clue who this is directed towards, nor what it has to do with the topic at hand.


To my notion about the Hole Crystal.

And yes Star, for me it'll be a bauble too. However i think for the lowlevels it's quite a nice item, albeit with charges.
And yes, i expect for you almost everything you receive will have bauble status, but then you're a 1,5%-er, so it's not really an issue what Amonien is given, now is it?
And of course you've not used 50 heal-pots in your life. Who'd seriously harm you. But let me enlighten you. Most DO get hurt when fighting overwhelming numbers of lvl 17-20 monsters. Those 50 heals...we used them up in 1 session saturday...and about 500 bandages too...otherwise known as ouch. :roll: :lol:

You can agree with me that you won't use them, or you can agree with me that you WILL use them, but one it will have to be, Star.

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PostAuthor: Nob » Mon Jan 12, 2004 7:48 pm

Khaelindra wrote:
Vergilius wrote:
Starslayer_D wrote:please tell me how many evards you plan on casting.. that's 50 charges... that's allmost more then total heal potions used by amonien in her avlis life.


No clue who this is directed towards, nor what it has to do with the topic at hand.


To my notion about the Hole Crystal.

And yes Star, for me it'll be a bauble too. However i think for the lowlevels it's quite a nice item, albeit with charges.


Too bad it's only usable starting at level 15, eh? :)
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PostAuthor: Reinstag » Mon Jan 12, 2004 7:57 pm

As someone who has a PC with 'uber' gear, I think I'll chime in here about my thoughts on end of plot item rewards.

One thing Dieder mentioned is not being able to compete with the gear a PC already has. If he were to look through Timo's inventory looking to see what he could give as a reward, he would see shit that most NPCs would drool over and ol' Dieder would think, "Crap. What can I possibly give this guy that would mean anything?"

I had a discussion with another DM about this very thing. He was getting a plot ready but was completely stumped as to what Timo should get at the end. My response was it didn't matter what he handed out, I still keep it. Sitting in one of Timo's many persistant chests are every DM given end of plot item. From his fireball spitting short swords to a simple 'thank you' note from an NPC, it's all there. When I'm digging through a chest looking for an item another PC wants to buy, I see those items and think back to where I got them and smile.

End of plot items don't have to be the end-all-be-all item for that PC. A note from an NPC thanking them, a writ from the city giving them 'credit' on a home purchase, a medal from thier military, or anything like that has meaning. Give it a cool description, mention the PC's name and make sure the item is loaded in the pallet so they can have it in a persistant chest so they can see it and think, "Thats right, I was there, I defeated the Underpants Gnome that was plauging the poor citizens of Elysia."

Avlis is a roleplay server. The items handed out don't have to have stats. All they have to do is have meaning.
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PostAuthor: Reinstag » Mon Jan 12, 2004 8:00 pm

Ashlynn wrote:
Nob wrote:As for rewards, I think something that'd be just as interesting as unlocking PrC's would be handing players dyes of their choice. Let them customize some clothing or armor as recognition of what they've done.



*thinks of a certain helmet*
I would *soooooo* love that.... 8)

Ditto!
*looks at the ugliest/most useful helmet he owns*
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PostAuthor: Vichan Lyonsen » Mon Jan 12, 2004 8:26 pm

Reinstag wrote:Avlis is a roleplay server. The items handed out don't have to have stats. All they have to do is have meaning.


Amen!
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PostAuthor: Deider » Mon Jan 12, 2004 8:29 pm

Khaelindra wrote:One nit about the "Hole Crystal": a special end-item with charges isn't what i'd call a "durable" memory. Unless you don't use it, in which case it's just a bauble.


That's on purpose, actually. OOC I love charged items, and IC there are reasons unexplained.... mwuhahahahahahaaa! :twisted:
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PostAuthor: Nighthawk4 » Mon Jan 12, 2004 8:47 pm

Vichan Lyonsen wrote:
Reinstag wrote:Avlis is a roleplay server. The items handed out don't have to have stats. All they have to do is have meaning.


Amen!


Exactly :wink:
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PostAuthor: Starslayer_D » Mon Jan 12, 2004 8:48 pm

Khaelindra wrote:
Vergilius wrote:
Starslayer_D wrote:please tell me how many evards you plan on casting.. that's 50 charges... that's allmost more then total heal potions used by amonien in her avlis life.


No clue who this is directed towards, nor what it has to do with the topic at hand.


To my notion about the Hole Crystal.

And yes Star, for me it'll be a bauble too. However i think for the lowlevels it's quite a nice item, albeit with charges.
And yes, i expect for you almost everything you receive will have bauble status, but then you're a 1,5%-er, so it's not really an issue what Amonien is given, now is it?
And of course you've not used 50 heal-pots in your life. Who'd seriously harm you. But let me enlighten you. Most DO get hurt when fighting overwhelming numbers of lvl 17-20 monsters. Those 50 heals...we used them up in 1 session saturday...and about 500 bandages too...otherwise known as ouch. :roll: :lol:

You can agree with me that you won't use them, or you can agree with me that you WILL use them, but one it will have to be, Star.

M.


Hey.. I never said I considered that hole Crystal a bauble. 50 charges of a spell I cannot cast , cast at lvl 15, are powerfull. I just failed to see given normal combat and combat frequencies how this crystal could be seriously depleted even in a few months.
For me, charged items adn items with cast/day get used when I don't by reflex use one of my quicklsotted spells. I either have to quickslot the item or dig it out. Even then, charged Items are used by me as failbacks when I run out of renewable resources. Given that I try to husband my spells, this is unfrequent.

I do have other characters who do guzzle potions like crazy. Clerics have the little advantage of having cure and heal spells, wich keep personal potion consumption fairly low. (no other class can match them there).

Somehow I have to arive at the conclusion that you misread my post. You thought I consider the crystal insignificant, while I actually was asking how you could consider it insignificant (given yout nit in your previous post).

Sigh and sorry.

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PostAuthor: WrathOG777 » Mon Jan 12, 2004 8:50 pm

Here is my take on items. Timo can pull +3 items out of his ass, but he cannot find a single thing that would make Tiras happy.

I see a lot of focus on +# enchantment. bah.

Like Reinstag and Ashlynn mentioned, some of us are more interested in looks, feel, special nifty things over +5 weapons.

To be honest I think my most cherished item is my smoking pipe. If I had caught the pickpocket who took it there would of been a finger of death flying for damn sure! And he took some of my mellowsmoke too the bastard.

Tiras uses mostly buyable equipment. The gear is nothing special, but I cannot find anything that is so great that I would buy it.
Found armor that is purple and has spikes.
Found a helm that is very spikey.
Have a different weapon made by the 4A weekly, just because I can.
Shield is the standard darksteel everyone and their brother has.

Tiras got his gear exactly the same way everyone else seems to have, Older characters with hordes.
Regular swordsmen belt is nothing special, every monk(rogue/bard) can get it at first lvl, but it sure is nice to have.
Bracers of armor are vital I feel. Everyone should use them instead of enchanted armor. It gives you the feeling that you can put on that armor and look unique. Change styles occasionaly. So what if that takes away your bracer item, using two items to get the bonus just armor would give. I like looking good instead of using the same armor everyone else does.
Best thing I have, that is just amazing are rings of clear thought. Never seen them for sale ever anywhere. So I jumped at the chance of owning them the second I could. Now that I got them, I am considering selling them, because I like ploymorphs. Every caster probably knows exactly what I mean by that.

What would Tiras actualy use? What does Tiras actualy need?
* Ever-full pouch of mellowsmoke.
* His guild items (those are comming soon)
* Tower shield: purple with spikes I would drop the +2 AC he uses in a heartbeat. But I know they donot exist.
* Wands. Sure you use them up, so they are great oneshot onenight adventure items. 50 charges of some underused spells. Make them stuff noone ever wastes a spell slot on. Like... prismatic spray.
* Rods. same as above, but everyone can use these.
* Duplicate item to what I use already, but a nifty name and description. Like "Tiras's Left hook of Destruction" for my bracer slot that is realy just a bracer of armor with a cool name.
* Until we lost them all to server crashes STEAL had some nifty pirate suits. Those were the best! Just custom clothes, but soo cool. Might still be one or two floating around.
* The chance to make a custom item. Every mage and cleric could if NWN supported 3rd edition item creation, so why not give folks a chance occasionaly. Including the massive EXP and gold cost the PHB demands.
* Rod of summon lezbian pixie

Speaking out for melee durability folks seem to think is a serious issue. How about some defensive rods be made available. That makes them more durable in general, but is limited duration and dispellable. 1-3/day of stoneskin, ghostly visage, haste, shadowshield, protection from elements, etc would go a long way to survivability while still leaving these folks very mortal. This would also give more melees the feeling that rest is nessasary. It irks me to see spellless folks staying awake for weeks at a time as if they are immune to sleep. Am I the only one that actualy has my character get naked and sleep?
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PostAuthor: Starslayer_D » Mon Jan 12, 2004 8:53 pm

BTW, I am with Reinstag there.

I have most of my quest given items with me, and the few I don't are in ym personal chest. That's personal as in *no trade*. Give away my Nastasiou's knuckle or my staff of curing? Even if I don't use them, I keep them. They are representing hallmarks and mementoes of my character.

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PostAuthor: Starslayer_D » Mon Jan 12, 2004 8:58 pm

Durability: I have seen swordsman belt like enchantment on several items for sale by various merchants. Boots are craftable who offer something similar, too.
Those 5 pts of damage reduction seem not much, but at lower levels they are more often then not the difference between life and death.

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PostAuthor: Cath » Mon Jan 12, 2004 9:00 pm

I agree with you Wrath to some extent.

My girl feels very vulnerable but uses worse armor than she has to (less dex bonus) - why?
Because she likes to wear the same thing as her fiance...
:D

There are still things out there though that would make me happy just because of the +# on them.
Most of them related to keeping me a little safer.

About the hole crystal - I like it but for one thing - it is heavy and large and I can't store it.
I would love to put it away and take it out to look at it and remember like Timo does - but I can't.
Every day I have to drag it around makes me a little less happy to own it.
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PostAuthor: Halvar Yanocen » Mon Jan 12, 2004 9:11 pm

WrathOG777 wrote:To be honest I think my most cherished item is my smoking pipe. If I had caught the pickpocket who took it there would of been a finger of death flying for damn sure! And he took some of my mellowsmoke too the bastard.


OT but an unamed cleric got his mellowsmoke weed pickpocketed on his first week and he spent half his gold (500 gp) to have the perpetrator assassinated. (No, we didn't catch him.)
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PostAuthor: Malathyre » Mon Jan 12, 2004 9:27 pm

I don't think that there is anything wrong with wanting items for reasons other than clear improvement over what you have, and ignoring the +# factor. My character has a few things she would never trade, regardless of whether or not she found something better. With the paints and dyes available in HotU, making things look the way you want should get easier, too.

However, on the flip side, many Avlis characters are grizzled veterans of much conflict, or just too practically minded to care much about style and looks. These people would want the best items they can find, and I don't think that there's anything wrong with that, either. Both ways are perfectly legitimate ways for one to play a character.
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PostAuthor: Actually » Mon Jan 12, 2004 9:32 pm

choraldances wrote:I've been doing this all the time when I DM. Players don't look for them. They expect a "Chest" with goodies. That's not how I work. I hide them in remains of foes that they fought.

Tell you the truth, there has been about 4 or 5 times stuff that was lost due to server reset or item cleanup script than items picked up by PC's simply because the PC's were too lazy or just simply don't want to look into the remains of the monsters I spawned.


I'd like to comment on this, from a the perspective of a "nice-guy" player. I have more than once found myself in a group of adventurers of vastly different levels chasing down some DM lead or other. In these instances, I often feel lucky if I get in even a couple of crossbow bolts, or manage to heal one person who falls. Things are crazy, people are running around in circles, it's impossible to tell who took what down, and I'm doing my best to keep a positive attitude and not feel like a spectator 'cause I'm not using any gear that glows.

When that happens, or in big events in general, I will NOT check remains because I don't want to feel like I'm looting w/o helping. I also don't want to be the only one grabbing loot while the Flashing Blade Brigade are still fighting three feet away. I think that sometimes, when a group doesn't check bodies, it's because a whole BUNCH of us are feeling this way. Nobody wants to be the first to grab something, everyone wants to give the others a shot at the treasure. Sometimes, it's not a case of laziness, but a case of terminal OOC niceness that prevents us from doing that.

Also, it has happened that I've checked a body at a DM event, said, "Ooh! Awesome sword, yay me!" only to find out that the DM didn't mean for that item to drop. :oops: Not railing on the DM's here, mistakes happen. Just saying maybe a little DM hint here, something like "There seems to be a glint of gold showing from beneath the robes of the cultist you just killed" or something like that. Also, sometimes DM events happen over the top of encounter triggers. In those instances, I just don't want to play a big game of "finger bone, finger bone, gem" trying to figure out which drop is the "good" drop.

About gear... Generally I agree with Wrath here. Personality is WAY more important to me than +'s. I'm in no hurry to join the Flaming Blade Brigade. Hell, even if I ever did accumulate gear like that, I'd be the same asstastic tactician I am now, so I can't see how it would make me any more "viable" of a combat character. But style? Flair? RP-enhancing gear? Gimme gimme gimme. Just yesterday at the trade fair Jerry spent like FORTY-FIVE THOUSAND gold on a glitched Adventurer's Robe that doesn't have pants attached. 45k for an item that retails, even at the most inflated NPC merchant, for about 17k. AND I already HAD an Adventurer's Robe, which Vanya that Highway Bandit wouldn't take in trade. :P So I just ditched the old robes at a backwater NPC merchant for about 2k IIRC. Huge fiscal loss for Jerry, any way you look at it, and I did it all to wind up with the exact same +'s I had to start with. Because in my pantless Adventurer Robe I look funny as hell. I've gotten more fun out of RP'ing that outfit, in one day of ownership, than I can get in a week of killing things that can't take me past Barely Injured because they can only even land a hit by criticalling.

Also, and I know I have really sporadic playtime, way more so than others, but in my year of playing Jerry he's received exactly 1 item from a DM, a harp that summons a skeleton that I'll never use 'cause I don't want to eat up the charges on my single most prized possession. This isn't me complaining. This is me being amazed that anyone would ever, could ever, might possibly even THINK to ever, not be satisfied 'cause they've only got X number of DM items, or they were only X powerful. If you're walking around with +2 anything, and you didn't buy it at a trade fair or get it from "back in the day" before the loot tables were adjusted, then pat yerself on the back for being a stellar Avlis player and be happy with that. Hell, I'd be happy to even SEE the end of a DM event. Most times, either I have to log off or else the "end" turns out to be a bunch of PC's standing around, with no idea where to go or what to do, until we all get distracted and wander off. Oh, or it becomes the Flaming Blade Brigade Showcase, and I wander off out of frustration for feeling useless/helpless/worthless.

I'm personally happy with the cookie-ing I've gotten in my play time, and I know a newbie or two who considers RP-related xp to be one of the greatest parts of Avlis.

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PostAuthor: Deider » Mon Jan 12, 2004 9:51 pm

Cath wrote:About the hole crystal - I like it but for one thing - it is heavy and large and I can't store it.
I would love to put it away and take it out to look at it and remember like Timo does - but I can't.
Every day I have to drag it around makes me a little less happy to own it.


Ahh, the Hole Crystal, the white elephant of DM rewards.

I spent a lot of time thinking about how to make the Hole Crystal. There are OOC and IC reasons for why it is heavy, why it's plot, why it's not in the palette, why you have to be 15th level to use it, why it has charges, etc.

If it gets to the point where it's a true burden on you Cath, then sell or trade it. You'll always have your memories of helping defeat The G - who needs an overpowered bowling ball? I'd be curious to see how much it would fetch at an auction.
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PostAuthor: Vanor » Mon Jan 12, 2004 9:59 pm

Actually wrote:About gear... Generally I agree with Wrath here. Personality is WAY more important to me than +'s.


And extreamly rare, to the point, that if you're holding out on something personalized, I'd forget about it. It's not that we have something against personalized gear, but rather the amount of work involved.

Someone has to make the item, export it to a ERF, upload it to the FTP server. Then someone else has to dl the ERF, add it to the mods, and get the mods ready to be loaded on the next reset. Then someone has to log in as a DM and give the item to the PC in question.

Which is most likely why they are so valueable and sought after. They are the hallmark of exceptional playing on Avlis. But I just wanted to point out how and more to the point why they are so rare.

but in my year of playing Jerry he's received exactly 1 item from a DM, a harp that summons a skeleton that I'll never use 'cause I don't want to eat up the charges on my single most prized possession.


You do know you can now have items recharged, right?

If you're walking around with +2 anything, and you didn't buy it at a trade fair or get it from "back in the day" before the loot tables were adjusted, then pat yerself on the back for being a stellar Avlis player and be happy with that.


Honestly, it shouldn't be this way. The DM's should be giving out enough +2 sized loot, that most people have access to it. You shouldn't need to be a stellar Avlis player to get such loot, the typical Avlis PC... Which means one that stays IC and such, should have access to +2 and even +3 loot.
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PostAuthor: Actually » Mon Jan 12, 2004 10:18 pm

Vanor wrote:And extreamly rare, to the point, that if you're holding out on something personalized, I'd forget about it. It's not that we have something against personalized gear, but rather the amount of work involved.

Someone has to make the item, export it to a ERF, upload it to the FTP server. Then someone else has to dl the ERF, add it to the mods, and get the mods ready to be loaded on the next reset. Then someone has to log in as a DM and give the item to the PC in question.

Which is most likely why they are so valueable and sought after. They are the hallmark of exceptional playing on Avlis. But I just wanted to point out how and more to the point why they are so rare.


Understandable, certainly. Anything that is truly unique is, of course, huge amounts of work for the team... I guess the trick is to find the balance btw stuff w/ personality vs. stuff that is overly personalized. Great example here is the Jester's Robes. These are sold by an NPC, have no powers whatsoever, and don't have Jerry's name on 'em anywhere. But, in my year of playing, I've never come across a single other PC who wore 'em regularly. It's like Jerry's personal thing, for me. People see me coming their way, in my rainbow-colored pants and my bare-midriff jacket, and they know who I am, they know I'm JERRY. That makes me feel good, as a player. Makes me enjoy the game more. In fact, I just came across the Gnomish Quilted Armor w/ all the colors on it, and now I'm torn 'cause I want to wear it all the time but it isn't Jerry's trademark outfit.

You do know you can now have items recharged, right?


Yep, there's that guy in Le'Or. Haven't been to him yet to see if he'll recharge my Harp of Haunting. Have to try that sometime. :D

Honestly, it shouldn't be this way. The DM's should be giving out enough +2 sized loot, that most people have access to it. You shouldn't need to be a stellar Avlis player to get such loot, the typical Avlis PC... Which means one that stays IC and such, should have access to +2 and even +3 loot.


Well, I know I'm a powergaming scumbag and all, so maybe it's just me? *laughs* Seriously though, unless I'm more of a cheater than I already know about, I don't suspect I've been paticularly excluded from DM events. That's why I make the comment about playtime, because I know a lot of the situation is the responsibility of me the player. But I know I've been involved in:

The Sereg/Dragon plot.
The Weapons of Light plot.
The Sereg Invasion plot.
A lich encounter in the Mikona Crypts.
The Vortex plot (two different PC's of mine, one now lost to the 90-day'er).
Various Raven/Red Shadow related events back when they were still Silk's babies.
Narin's Lycanthropy plot.
Three or mebbe four other "one-off" DM sessions.
One other plot that I'm struggling to advance but haven't managed to get far on (thanks Alex!!! :D).

I've certainly not been a major player in any of these, but neither was I a wallflower the whole time. I've gotten rp cookies, and once got xp for being able to answer a question that none of the high-falootin' mages in the party were able to answer (all the way back at the very first humble beginnings of the Vortex plot). But, like I said, I have really never seen the "end" of any of those plots, and I understand that to some extent it is that "endgame" where the items start appearing. Mebbe in addition to Alex's idea of incremental xp (which is fabulous, btw... I've had a chance to experience some of that in action and I loved it. Not only did it help me feel like I was reaping the rewards for my participation, it ALSO helped me feel like I understood what the "chapters" were, and where the breaks in action should occur. Helps avoid the, "well, what now?" aspect of DM interaction that I've experienced before) some thought could be given to incremental item rewards? I would suspect that many people would be thrilled to get a bundle of bandages, or a stack of arrows, to replace "expendable" gear consumed during the DM event. I know I would.

Bye Now,
Jerry Cornelius - Parenthetical Asides.
Everything I need to know in life, I learned from being an alcoholic.

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PostAuthor: Ashlynn » Mon Jan 12, 2004 10:25 pm

Actually wrote:I would suspect that many people would be thrilled to get a bundle of bandages, or a stack of arrows, to replace "expendable" gear consumed during the DM event. I know I would.


That happened to us during the first Mistress-Raven showdown. Jad loaded a chest in one of the rooms of the Lair with bandages and potions. It was both a welcome sight IC, as we'd gone through a lot of our own and an OOC, "Oh shit, there's a lot of these in here. What's coming up next?"

Loads of fun. But yes, very appreciated. And the placement of them didn't break the suspension of disbelief, like in some games where you're running through an office building and pick up some medical supplies and two full Uzi clips from some secretary's desk. That must be some mean boss she works for...

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