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Windows 10 update WTF?

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Windows 10 update WTF?

PostAuthor: GrimlyAxefingler » Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:03 pm

since the last win10 update
- my gear randomly turns invisible
- some spawns randomly turn invisible and i cannot interact with them except thru AOO's
- my sound cuts out for no reason until i restart
- I cannot exit from either the game or dm client without crashing on the exit screen
- I'm getting random windows ad popups that are not internet based, they seem to be coming from my machine, and they crash everything every time

Anyone else getting this since the last update? or have any quick fixes?
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Re: Windows 10 update WTF?

PostAuthor: Kinjara » Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:23 pm

I run the client on a Windows 8.1 machine as my Windows 10 units are for development. Are you running as Administrator? You may also want to try some of the compatibility modes to see if things improve. Open the folder where the nwnmain.exe program is located, right click it and open Properties. From there ensure that "Run this program as an Administrator" is checked. The compatibility settings are changed on that same window.

You may already know all this Grimly but perhaps someone else doesn't.

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Re: Windows 10 update WTF?

PostAuthor: GrimlyAxefingler » Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:56 pm

I am running as admin, and i had been running perfectly until the last win10 update. These issues literally started happening on the first reboot after i took the update.
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Re: Windows 10 update WTF?

PostAuthor: gutemensch » Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:05 am

Check your vid drive and make sure its updated.
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Re: Windows 10 update WTF?

PostAuthor: Gaelyn Faerstryd » Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:11 am

I had issues with the right side chat log window at the bottom of the interface. It wouldn' t let me access the radial menu to include DM messages, or to expand the height of the window. Fortunately, it just doesn't work correctly if I try to do these operations from the center of the log window... but it does work from the left side of the same...

Undocumented feature!
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Re: Windows 10 update WTF?

PostAuthor: Gorgon » Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:45 pm

GrimlyAxefingler wrote:since the last win10 update
- my gear randomly turns invisible
- some spawns randomly turn invisible and i cannot interact with them except thru AOO's
- my sound cuts out for no reason until i restart
- I cannot exit from either the game or dm client without crashing on the exit screen
- I'm getting random windows ad popups that are not internet based, they seem to be coming from my machine, and they crash everything every time

Anyone else getting this since the last update? or have any quick fixes?


- my gear randomly turns invisible: Make sure "Environment Mapping on Creatures" is enabled under Advanced Video Settings (just in case you switched that off somehow). Having this off will do all sorts of weird things IG.

Are you playing full screen or in a window? Something that takes focus (like the toast and other notifications in Win 10) can cause issues as well, without using compatibility mode. While both the game and toolset work fine for me without it, I've found Windows 10 really bad for not returning focus whenever it opens any sort of new overlay. or takes focus away from the game/toolset, without using Win 8 compatibility. Opening creature properties in the toolset will have it behind the main window, and the game itself doesn't register random mouse clicks. I haven't needed any lower than Win 8 compatibility mode for either so far, but you can try lower.

I don't need Administrator mode at all, though that may depend on how you have your regular user account set-up, and you do need to make sure your user account owns all the files in the nwn folder. The second you run the game just once in Admin mode, the logs, config files, mods saved in the toolset and other things get saved by the built in Admin account, so it is a catch 22 once that happens. You need to keep using Admin mode.

Mouse drivers/hardware are another issue. Some mice (certain MS ones for example) use high DPI with no way to adjust that, or control the polling rate, and NWN can't deal with that. I had to switch to a junker mouse just to get things working properly again, before buying a new Logitech one. If it worked before, then that probably isn't it though.

For sound, all I can suggest is trying other sound drivers inside the game. Nothing really worked for me until I switched to the standard Direct 3d Software Emulation, but it varies for different hardware.

The game itself is using Open GL, so a recent video driver update may have been part of your problems. I disabled automatically updating those in Win 10, since I use the ones from Nvidia directly when they update, but check your driver settings for anything that might have changed? If there was a driver update, see if you can revert it to what did work, if you can't get the newer ones happy. Never updating the drivers again isn't really an option though (and Win 10 does its best to take that choice away from you).

I've never even heard of Gaelyn Faerstryd's issues before (I always just click the top bar of each log window), so no clue. X:|
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Re: Windows 10 update WTF?

PostAuthor: GrimlyAxefingler » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:13 am

Thanks ill work through these suggestions.
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Re: Windows 10 update WTF?

PostAuthor: Nighthawk4 » Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:36 pm

It seems I was very lucky.

I have a Windows 10 tablet which has been updated recently. I just took the MicroSD card with the Avlis files on it from my previous tablet and slotted it into the new one and it seems to play fine, even in the DM Client.

I realise that doesn't help much. I can't see why a Windows 10 update would have changed any of your Avlis files themselves. Incidentally, I don't run as Admin - just say yes on the UAC message.

Hope to see you back online tonight - and Weds and Thurs of course :wink:
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Re: Windows 10 update WTF?

PostAuthor: Chemical-Burn » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:20 am

Add me to the list of people Win10's update made NWN unplayable. Last night I woke up my computer from sleep move to see the normal "review your settings" to which I usually delay but this time that button was gone and I was forced to review them.

Tonight I woke up the computer to see programs has stopped running (mainly my razer mouse program) So I rebooted and after a lengthy boot I realized windows 10 did an update. Now NWN is super laggy. Load times between zones, simple things like turning the camera cause 1-3 seconds of lag time. Poor Rade got hit by a death spell as my character was trying to buff her and the lag + radial menu + auto quicken = disaster.

So I'll be searching for ways to downgrade but first off I have to figure out what updates just installed and at least I can maybe narrow down the update causing the issues.

Off to Google!

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Re: Windows 10 update WTF?

PostAuthor: Gorgon » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:31 am

July 11, 2017—KB4025342 (OS Build 15063.483)

Enjoy! :finger:

Already had a few issues to clear up with that, and my security software and other things, so I'll try NWN next.

*edits* "2017-07 Security Update for Adobe Flash Player for Windows 10 Version 1703 for x64-based Systems (KB4025376)" and "Windows Malicious Software Removal Tool for Windows 8, 8.1, 10 and Windows Server 2012, 2012 R2, 2016 x64 Edition - July 2017 (KB890830)" came with it for me BTW.
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Re: Windows 10 update WTF?

PostAuthor: GrimlyAxefingler » Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:11 pm

found one workaround for a major issue i was having.

Issue - Alt tabbing out of game to look at a web browser would cause the screen to be entirely black on tabbing back, requiring a restart.
Workaround - after tabbing back to NWN do a CTRL ALT DEL to task managaer and then hit the cancel button.
for some reason brings the graphics back normally
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Re: Windows 10 update WTF?

PostAuthor: tizmo » Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:44 am

GrimlyAxefingler wrote:found one workaround for a major issue i was having.

Issue - Alt tabbing out of game to look at a web browser would cause the screen to be entirely black on tabbing back, requiring a restart.
Workaround - after tabbing back to NWN do a CTRL ALT DEL to task managaer and then hit the cancel button.
for some reason brings the graphics back normally


Win10 seems to have an issue re-attaching the mouse to the NWN window once you Alt Tab away from it. I've been able to get the NWN window working again by just Alt tabbing back and forth 2 or 3 times. Something like:
- Click on NWN window, and shit it doesn't respond to the mouse
- Alt Tab
- Click on NWN window, and it will maybe respond to the mouse
- Alt Tab
- Click on NWN window, and now it works.

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Re: Windows 10 update WTF?

PostAuthor: GrimlyAxefingler » Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:34 am

For that issue i just have to hit ALT and it brings the mouse back to NWN...but when the screen goes black i can still hear the game and tell that im moving... but no graphics.
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Re: Windows 10 update WTF?

PostAuthor: Heidecker » Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:53 am

ikr, this game just doesn't work right with Windows 10, I wish I had seen your post before I upgraded.

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Re: Windows 10 update WTF?

PostAuthor: Gorgon » Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:02 am

Actually I was surprised how well it worked with Win 10, after all the feedback from others, before I took the leap up from my old XP box.

Sound drivers for the game suck, since I am stuck using the standard Direct 3d Software Emulation one, but it does work. Mouse... well, don't use MS and it is fine. Anything that lets you adjust the DPI and polling rate for a 15 year old game are good (or just a crappy old mouse).

The big hurdle I think people are running into is the "Run as Admin" myth. As long as your user account owns/has full access to ALL files in the NWN folder, you don't need it, or ever want to use it. The second you use it, you start saving files as the default Admin account, meaning you need it to access them the next time (especially important if you use the toolset).

All the compatibility mode hype is overrated too (in my case at least). Both the toolset and game run OK without it, though there are some glitches with toolset windows not regaining front focus when opening. I use Win 8 compatibility for both the toolset, and 7 for the game, and they are fine after that. So far, the only app I've needed XP-SP3 compatibility mode for is NWN Explorer, since it loves demanding old school direct file access stuff. *edited for my horrible memory*

*Update* If you use the "Direct Connect Launcher" (discussed here) with NWNCX, and skip running it as Admin (like I did in that post), you may have to use XP-SP3 compatibility mode on the NWNCX Loader.exe (Win 7 mode seems fine for the launcher and nwmain.exe files). I use the fully patched version of NWNCX, so no loader to worry about, but you don't need that here (read the readme.txt file in it). Keeping track of the compatibility settings for loaders, and the files they load, is annoying these days, but remember to check them all.

CPU affinity does matter, but not how I expected. Both the game and toolset are fine using quad core here, though the game chokes in some places if the hyper-threaded ones are used. I use an app called Process Lasso to limit the game to only the physical cores, with a Client CPU Affinity=-2 setting in my nwnplayer.ini (under [Game Options]), so it still uses all 4 main ones. The toolset is fine with hyper-threading, and nwtoolset.ini set to the same setting (CPU Affinity=-1 there under [Start Up] for all cores, not Client CPU Affinity=-2 - Note the lack of the 'Client' word and different value), though I usually disable one core in that for system use while doing major builds for a while. It still isn't true multi-threaded, so it will pick whatever core for the next task synchronously, which can slow down things (like a full script compile done on a virtual one by a few seconds), but not a huge deal.

*Edits to add* There is a noticeable long pause at the end of toolset script compiling, when doing a build and also compiling palettes here (big Avlis mods). That is the palette compile time, and that appears to use one core for all it. It doesn't say it is working on the palettes, though if you move the progress window before that point, you can see the palette stuff being done in another behind it - stupid Win 10 not focusing stuff properly (I tried Win 7 compatibility mode, instead of 8, but it didn't help there. Just flashes briefly in front, then drops behind the other progress window for both). The individual script compiles seem switch between all of them, so the palette work is probably the slowdown I noticed when it is using a virtual core.

To put some context with that mumbo-jumbo, when I first tried testing NWN here with all cores running and hyper-threading, I had to cap my frame rate at 200/second, to stop the silly game from making my video card work too hard, with no reason to. Then I ran into some things IG (tiny spiders and other bugs), and it dropped to 1fps or slower, stuttering like crazy. Turning off the virtual (hyper-threaded) cores, it jumped back up and hit the 200fps wall. *Edits* Dropping down from Win 8 compatibility to 7 for the client (game) might have helped too. My memory sucks.

So if you don't use an extra app to deal with that, then pick one core to use in nwnplayer.ini, and stick to the even numbered ones. (0/2/4/6 if you have quad core, or 0/2 for dual). The odd numbers are the ones to avoid. If you set Client CPU Affinity=1 on your dual core system, you aren't using the second physical core. You are using the 1st core's virtual one, and may run into the same problems.

If you don't have a real video card, and are using your on-board GPU, then its Open GL driver support is questionable. I couldn't play the game with mine (1 frame every 5-10 seconds, and total crap for textures), but you might have better luck. Any real video card will do (15+ year old game), but they still don't understand the need to support older things when it comes to on-board processing.
Last edited by Gorgon on Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Windows 10 update WTF?

PostAuthor: tizmo » Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:33 pm

Gorgon wrote:Actually I was surprised how well it worked with Win 10, after all the feedback from others, before I took the leap up from my old XP box.

Sound drivers for the game suck, since I am stuck using the standard Direct 3d Software Emulation one, but it does work. Mouse... well, don't use MS and it is fine. Anything that lets you adjust the DPI and polling rate for a 15 year old game are good (or just a crappy old mouse).

The big hurdle I think people are running into is the "Run as Admin" myth. As long as your user account owns/has full access to ALL files in the NWN folder, you don't need it, or ever want to use it. The second you use it, you start saving files as the default Admin account, meaning you need it to access them the next time (especially important if you use the toolset).

All the compatibility mode hype is overrated too (in my case at least). Both the toolset and game run OK without it, though there are some glitches with toolset windows not regaining front focus when opening. I use Win 8 compatibility for both and they are fine after that. So far, the only app I've needed XP-SP3 compatibility mode for is NWN Explorer, since it loves demanding old school direct file access stuff.

CPU affinity does matter, but not how I expected. Both the game and toolset are fine using quad core here, though the game chokes in some places if the hyper-threaded ones are used. I use an app called Process Lasso to limit the game to only the physical cores, with a Client CPU Affinity=-2 setting in my nwnplayer.ini (under [Game Options]), so it still uses all 4 main ones. The toolset is fine with hyper-threading, and nwtoolset.ini set to the same setting (CPU Affinity=-1 there under [Start Up] for all cores, not Client CPU Affinity=-2 - Note the lack of the 'Client' word and different value), though I usually disable one core in that for system use while doing major builds for a while. It still isn't true multi-threaded, so it will pick whatever core for the next task synchronously, which can slow down things (like a full script compile done on a virtual one by a few seconds), but not a huge deal.

To put some context with that mumbo-jumbo, when I first tried testing NWN here with all cores running and hyper-threading, I had to cap my frame rate at 200/second, to stop the silly game from making my video card work too hard, with no reason to. Then I ran into some things IG (tiny spiders and other bugs), and it dropped to 1fps or slower, stuttering like crazy. Turning off the virtual (hyper-threaded) cores, it jumped back up and hit the 200fps wall.

So if you don't use an extra app to deal with that, then pick one core to use in nwnplayer.ini, and stick to the even numbered ones. (0/2/4/6 if you have quad core, or 0/2 for dual). The odd numbers are the ones to avoid. If you set Client CPU Affinity=1 on your dual core system, you aren't using the second physical core. You are using the 1st core's virtual one, and may run into the same problems.

If you don't have a real video card, and are using your on-board GPU, then its Open GL driver support is questionable. I couldn't play the game with mine (1 frame every 5-10 seconds, and total crap for textures), but you might have better luck. Any real video card will do (15+ year old game), but they still don't understand the need to support older things when it comes to on-board processing.


Gorgon,
This post is gold! I also have a Win10 system. I removed the "run as Administrator" and the "compatability settings" and updated the core affinities. Now everything runs faster because it no longer has to do that old emulation.

Is there a place in the Wiki where you are collecting the recommended configurations to make everything run well? If not, I think it would be great to have a concise place that discusses first, what settings are recommended for optimal playing, second what those settings do, and lastly, which settings can be tweaked to solve game issues. (I know there are several forum posts about this, but I'm thinking a nice clean wiki page would be better)

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