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Crafting XP discussion - split from AtT: Player's Idea Box

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Crafting XP discussion - split from AtT: Player's Idea Box

PostAuthor: Commander Morgan » Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:53 am

Auriane wrote:It took me 3 days of serious crafting just to gain four levels.
Painful as it was. Please do not cap the crafting!


Let me clarify my suggestion:

My point is that Gaining 3-4 levels in a single crafting click is what I was referring to. It's possible to gain far more xp in a single "craft 50" item run than should be possible, jumping over several levels at once. It's this that I was suggesting a Cap for, not a weekly limit on crafting, as yes, that's hard enough to grind as it is.

As an example... my pc just crafted 2 easy items and gained 3500xpcrafting, which levelled him up one level. If he attempted 50 of them(which he is fortunate to be affluent enough to do so) he could have gained 65-87500 crafting xp, jumping up 4 levels and skipping out on the fun he'd have actually working for those levels. Incidentally, the xp he will gain next time he crafts the same item will be less, and would be 0 by the time he gets the 4 levels.

I'm not team and it may be that the system.is designed to allow these huge jumps, but as far as my little corner of the world thinks, this is very much Cheesing to gain more xp.

So, my suggestion is to limit the xp earned in a single sitting to allow no more than one level of advancement at a time (not a weekly cap!)

If it's a team decision that this isnt cheesing, I can always buy myself another dozen levels. :(

Perhaps this could be moved to Ask the Team by a friendly administrator.

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Re: Player's idea box

PostAuthor: Zerub » Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:36 pm

Auriane wrote:It took me 3 days of serious crafting just to gain four levels. Painful as it was. Please do not cap the crafting!


I will say that I have been a crafter here for 12 RL years and if you made 4 levels all in the same craft in 3 days, then that is pretty amazing, unless it was the lower levels. Crafting was not meant to be something that people are able to do in no time. It takes a lot of time for sure.

To add onto what Commander Morgan is saying take a look at this screen shot of my final Tailoring batch.

http://www.screencast.com/t/fibL5Kztrzr

There is no way I should have gotten that much XP. At that time, I was level 18 and went all the way up to level 27. I jumped 9 levels. At that level it was not really too big of a deal since there are no more higher crafts. If I did that at say level 12 though and jumped all the way to 17 or 18, then that is HUGE! You skip a lot of levels there.

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Re: Player's idea box

PostAuthor: Auriane » Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:23 pm

Wow .. I haven't come across such easy experience in crafting.
Is that some way to cheat?

It's bad enough when it starts draining your experience

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Re: Player's idea box

PostAuthor: Grunt » Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:50 pm

Auriane wrote:Wow .. I haven't come across such easy experience in crafting.
Is that some way to cheat?

It's bad enough when it starts draining your experience


No it's not a way to cheat. It's for the finished article of an artificing item that takes a lot of XP and an large amount of ingredients (Unless you're someone who just happened to have had collected a shitload to keep on hand before the new crafting recipes went in, of course). The Artifice robe that was given as an example has a 7500 base crafting XP return (adjusted by its level comparable to yours...it's a level 18 item). It also costs you 3000 xp PER ITEM to try it. So, in the screenshot, the 21 tries means that 63,000xp was spent. Just getting to that level is not easy, and takes a good deal of gold, XP, and time.
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Re: Player's idea box

PostAuthor: gutemensch » Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:10 pm

Was there a change to the weaponcraft XP system by chance?
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Re: Player's idea box

PostAuthor: Commander Morgan » Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:47 am

Grunt wrote:No it's not a way to cheat.


I'm not saying cheating, as such, just suggesting and pointing out. :) forgive my grammar, English is not my first language.


It does seem to me that crafting en masse like this gives considerably more xp than would be expected.

Take Grunt's 7500xp cloak at normal difficulty. If I were to craft 20 at once I'd get 15oooxp max

If as I suggest the xp is calculated differently, I still want to make 20 cloaks.
After 3 I would level up (possibly less). I'd make another 5 at difficulty Easy which would give me half xp - 18750? - Before levelling again. Then I'd make another 5 at Very Easy - 9375xp?- before levelling again. After that the cloak would be Trivial and no xp. That makes 50625xp for the same batch.

In my simple mind mass producing seems to give an extra 100oooxp. This is the bit that I find cheesy - getting xp when the items should be Trivial.

Before I do this, Could we have a Team stance on this, I don't want to break any power crafting rules, just quietly craft in the corner of the world.

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Re: Crafting XP discussion - split from AtT: Player's Idea B

PostAuthor: avliswebadmin » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:08 pm

Split the discussion out after the relevant idea was suggested in the thread so that it could continue here as a discussion in the right place.
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Re: Crafting XP discussion - split from AtT: Player's Idea B

PostAuthor: Xeo » Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:38 pm

Commander Morgan...

While I value your experience and your feedback. I can give you a honest perspective of a player who had to start from scratch in a crafting field.

I was level 5 Tailoring before I made the choice to start learning the recipes, collecting the materials and trading.

I had very little in the way of resources for this craft. I've purchased, collected, hunted and traded for what I've needed to progress.

I am level 12 now and my progression has halted. This has been due to materials and rarity. So I have done recently contracts to get help on the labouring. But I'm a merchant not blessed with millions and millions of gold. So I have to be creative and come up with ideas in game to keep up with the pace. I enjoy building from scratch, as I've only been back for under 6 months.

It's going to be a long path, exp, coin and materials to make a six enchanted robe. That's my goal and it's going to be alot of fun getting there. So I do agree with you on the fun aspect of your points.

But

If you have a decent quantities of materials in stock built up over years and years of buying and collecting. It will be easier, because you will have many attempts to gain the experience in that craft.

Large quantities of materials + large amount of exp + large amounts of time + large amounts of gold = BIG REWARDS.

This system is fantastic and it's done wonders for the community.

1) Increase in RP and players creating thier own quests for materials.
2) Stimulated the economy and market
3) Given greater opportunity for coin to be earned by none crofters.
4) I think the most important improvement it's given everybody in the community access to good loot.

I have gone off point from the experience gain and now onto the benefits of this new crafting system. Apologies there...

What concerns me more is the DC 10 vs 1d100.

I have quite a few players busy collecting rare materials in large quantities, spending weeks if not months (Thaylis bracers took 6-8 weeks) only for the bracers to be destroyed by a dice roll.

I agree with journeyman / apprentice learning your trade/craft but if everything is trivial on the list, I don't belive the item should be compromised and only the artifacing kit and exp loss should.

Hijacking this thread here a bit. My apologies again :D
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Re: Crafting XP discussion - split from AtT: Player's Idea B

PostAuthor: Akai » Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:19 pm

As a beginning and journeyman crafter, I never have gained more than 1 level from a single crafting attempt, and don't expect it will hurt me any if I never do.

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Re: Crafting XP discussion - split from AtT: Player's Idea B

PostAuthor: SaraEF » Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:30 pm

Just as a point of note: how much do you think that screenshot Zerub linked cost him, if he was to buy all of the materials used at market rates? Including the gold sinks, it's an eye-watering amount.

We have a problem with Avlis, which is that the character base is extremely mature. Some people have been gathering gold and materials for literally more than a decade, and have had nothing good to do with some of them until new recipes were added. There's no palatable solution to that, and it does mean that every so often something weird like this will happen. As Akai and Xeo have both noted, this isn't really a thing your average joe crafter will ever encounter.

That said: there's a teamside discussion about crafting exp ongoing. I would never rule out changes to our systems in the future.
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Re: Crafting XP discussion - split from AtT: Player's Idea B

PostAuthor: Commander Morgan » Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:10 pm

Thanks Xeo, and avliswebadmin
Xeo wrote:Large quantities of materials + large amount of exp + large amounts of time + large amounts of gold = BIG REWARDS.


If this is accepted I'm happy to play with it; I didn't want to break any rules in what I *personally* thought may have been a rules exploit / metagaming (that was me banging on about one method giving 100ooo additional xp over another method and allowing one to gain higher levels than could normally be reached) As all know, I do love to sit in the corner and have a good hard craft, and not rock the boat.

SaraEF wrote:Just as a point of note: how much do you think that screenshot Zerub linked cost him, if he was to buy all of the materials used at market rates? Including the gold sinks, it's an eye-watering amount


As to the time, money and expense needed to "jump levels" yes that's a lot of money, not many folk hoard that much, and if anyone deserves to have to pay its Zerub, but it's still not addressing the xp-for-nothing or the reaching-levels-that-couldn't-be-reached-if-we-didn't-take-advantage-of-this-loophole method: (if all recipes past 21 are trivial how can you get xp to progress higher without some advantage?!)

If this is what's acceptable, I'll shush on this for now, and prepare to buy and jump several impossible levels too. :)

Xeo wrote:I agree with journeyman / apprentice learning your trade/craft but if everything is trivial on the list, I don't belive the item should be compromised and only the artifacing kit and exp loss should


This is a good point and has caused me many a cackle of mirth* as weeks of work go down the chute. Perhaps this could be discussed next!


*perhaps not mirth. No, definitely not mirth.

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Re: Crafting XP discussion

PostAuthor: Gorgon » Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:41 pm

I'll probably regret hitting submit here, but...

I'm going to avoid adding too much to this (yeah, right), now that it has been moved out of ATT, since SaraEF already mentioned that there is a team-side discussion ongoing. Changing the scripted stuff to work like Commander Morgan suggested can be done (already checked that myself), but there are a lot of other things they have to consider before doing it. One being, should the success rates increase, while the XP gained drops in a big batch like that (also doable), or else it is shooting yourself in the foot to craft anything that gains a level in bulk.

My main concern would be how to deal with those who already have made the big gains from it, while keeping it fair for them as well (figuring all that out would be far harder than the "fix" too). Smeec would probably kill himself if Zerub was always gonna be a better tailor than him (though I'd probably try killing him first :twisted: ).

I know I'm speaking as someone who hasn't done the big jump thing yet, but I do have plans to (I love my refresh/I miss my XP), so I might be a bit biased. This, and all the previous posts, have already stated most of my reasons for thinking it doesn't need to be "tweaked". The insane gold/XP/material costs to gain those levels make it something only a few can even consider. Sure, lower level crafters could jump a bit in the mid teens, but it will still take a lot of work. The gains in epic crafting levels are really nothing more than bragging rights, as also mentioned (once you are perfect, the rest is a waste). If we get epic crafting recipes, then it would be an issue, but look at how long it took to get only 6 more levels worth added. I'm not too worried about that right now.

If it is changed, I'd be fine with that too, though I would hope my concerns above are included in that change. I've gone through a few XP splits and other things here for crafting already, so one more revamp is nothing new.
:P

Commander Morgan wrote:if all recipes past 21 are trivial how can you get xp to progress higher without some advantage?!


I did want to say a few things about this, since you mentioned this a few times (back in the ATT topic as well). You can still gain XP from trivial items in research mode only. The XP stops when the recipe is 5 levels below your skill there, so you get 2 levels of trivial gains. Zerub and Smeec (and probably others) were in the high teens back when we only had 12th recipes to work on. Bulk mode doesn't give XP for anything trivial... or failure XP, which is also quite nice sometimes (though rather random).

There are also other ways of gaining crafting XP, and I don't just mean by a DM cookie...
:mrgreen:

*typo edits, and does a dance for ninja..ing Grunt, before he could submit*
Last edited by Gorgon on Thu Dec 22, 2016 5:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Crafting XP discussion - split from AtT: Player's Idea B

PostAuthor: Grunt » Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:49 pm

Go nuts, The Mayor needs some new robes. :)

BTW: There are 208 recipes where the base crafting xp reward is >=1000xp. 144 of them are in Weaponcrafting, which has been around for several years now. Granted, there are a wider number of weapons, and some of the more common weapons have lower xp yield than others (which may be a bug, as the difference is pretty stark later on). The Tailoring/Armorcrafting/Jewelcrafting XP yields fall right in line with those.

If you are/were fortunate enough to gather enough spare XP, gold, and ingredients to make 30 in a go? Do it, if you want to. If you go for difficult/very difficult to try to get maximum XP, just keep in mind that your success rate plummets pretty hard. You're pretty much burning materials. (Use research mode, if you want crafting XP for the first 2 trivial levels)
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Re: Crafting XP discussion - split from AtT: Player's Idea B

PostAuthor: Darkfire » Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:36 am

Hell. I shot up artificing levels like a mad man too. It took 700,000 character XP and a few million gold to do it.

It is fun, and sad, to think about the fact that I have literally artificed a level 40 character's worth of XP into things.
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Re: Crafting XP discussion - split from AtT: Player's Idea B

PostAuthor: Gorgon » Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:46 am

Artificing XP is a bit different, since there is no XP gain in the crafted version of it (merging stuff), and only from making the items.

It just keeps giving more XP as you spend it. You don't gain it all in one click, but you can click until you drop... and get back up to do it again, and again, and again. ;)

*may, or may not, have spent 600,000+ XP on that as well, long before refresh was an idea*
*edits to add* And looking at my current XP, that 600k I blew (in about 2 weeks) would get me almost back to where Smeec is now, after 8 months of refresh time. Like I said, I love my refresh/miss my (spare) XP. :?
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Re: Crafting XP discussion - split from AtT: Player's Idea B

PostAuthor: Darkfire » Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:11 am

Yeah it is definitely different sure. I just mean to say that if you HAVE resources, you can burn it in a few days or a couple weeks and advance crazy fast. Having the resources is key.
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Re: Crafting XP discussion - split from AtT: Player's Idea B

PostAuthor: Gorgon » Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:15 am

Heh, my edit at the bottom of the last one, as you posted, pretty much backs that up. }8)
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Re: Crafting XP discussion - split from AtT: Player's Idea B

PostAuthor: gutemensch » Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:08 am

A lot of it is just planning. Beginner crafters can gather and craft around the clock but as the levels increase, what your making goes up and so does the rarity of what is require. Then they can hire others to help gather and supply them. That is were packrat theory comes in. Nawen a pack rat gathers when the servers are near empty, RPs as they fill and does that for months on end. She crafted for the first time in 6 months. That was 6 months of planning for 15 minutes of crafting and crafting RP. Back to gathering again for 1000xp in her main craft.

I really like this system we have in place. I think an XP cap on sessions would only hurt the characters that RP as master crafters and possible turn some off it that were thinking about; FYI I play one of them. Only way I do see a cap working is if DC 10 tweaked to destroy the kits not the item or items can be reprimmed and not picking on mages with that. Nothing sucks more and those of us that do this know. When you roll low and screw up someone's order and have to start over again; I had the night of seven swords busted which thankfully the eighth one all the rolls were high. If there a cap in place. Why would anyone start over right then and there (if they had the supplies) if they were nearing, at limit or exceed it? As the crafter I want to make it as soon as I can and get my girl back to doing what she does best; annoying people. The customer wants their weapon as soon as possible.

Those are my thoughts as a player with a character in the upper reaches of craftdom.
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Re: Crafting XP discussion - split from AtT: Player's Idea B

PostAuthor: Zerub » Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:48 pm

Bit of an old post, but one other thing that I see odd about his is the following.

I watched a player go from level 12 Tailor to level 20 Tailor on one batch of crafting. At that point, you would be a level 20 tailor that had no idea how to make 14, 16 or 18th level crafts. I actually thought at level 12, a player would not get that much XP, but I was sure wrong.

Anyways, just thought I would point that out for some "Food for Thought." :)

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Re: Crafting XP discussion - split from AtT: Player's Idea B

PostAuthor: Cameron Klym » Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:10 pm

Sure wish that pretty much useless of a survivalist skill was like tailoring, in that regards. Just stupid how high the failure rate is when just trying to salt or smoke meat. If it was that hard in RL, as it is IG , I think most if not all ancient cultures would have died out.

Just saying.

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Re: Crafting XP discussion - split from AtT: Player's Idea B

PostAuthor: Auriane » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:06 am

I'm just level 11 in tailoring what can I make at level 12 to go to 20?
As for learning the recipes, I've got several for higher levels that I can't make quite yet

It truly has been a long process

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Re: Crafting XP discussion - split from AtT: Player's Idea B

PostAuthor: rk57957 » Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:18 pm

Auriane wrote:I'm just level 11 in tailoring what can I make at level 12 to go to 20?


I'm going to take a stab at it and guess artificable items. There is old crafting stuff which takes a long time to grind up those levels and then there is the new crafting stuff which takes XP and kits and if you've got the XP you can level a craft pretty quick. It's kind of the old wands vs artificing kits for leveling, one is much faster than the other. So you get that crazy scenario where a lvl 12 tailor goes to a lvl 20 tailor like that. It's also really expensive to do.
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Re: Crafting XP discussion - split from AtT: Player's Idea B

PostAuthor: Auriane » Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:41 am

It's all about enchanting tailored items?

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Re: Crafting XP discussion - split from AtT: Player's Idea B

PostAuthor: Tel » Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:52 am

It’s about crafting the base un-enchanted item. The items have no innate properties, and cost more gold sinks and XP to enchant. The gold cost is generally higher than the older items when everything is taken into account.
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Re: Crafting XP discussion - split from AtT: Player's Idea B

PostAuthor: Gorgon » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:07 am

I find it interesting that the people complaining the most are the ones who have also benefited the most from those gains (never suggesting how they would correct that either). :P
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