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From AtT Suggestions: Stealth Speed

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From AtT Suggestions: Stealth Speed

PostAuthor: Darkfire » Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:38 pm

Darkfire wrote:Add a feature that lets a stealthy person run while in stealth with some negative penalty to compensate for the movement. Mechanically may have to just give them a temporary movement speed increase that simulates moving faster/running (Player tool, target self, movement speed increase if stealthed, -penalty, remove penalty and movement speed increase when unstealthed)



So we had a good conversation on IRC about this. Just because I suggested it, doesn't mean it's a good idea! But as it stands, I do think it is. There are many other fantasy and SCI-FI settings where people can move very quickly while still retaining (some) of their stealth abilities. They can get from Point A to Point B very quickly, yet not be seen by anyone. I also acknowledge that "we are not other worlds" nor is Avlis under any obligation to conform because other stories may have it. I am simply saying that this is an established concept. There are also some references in D&D/Pathfinder about fast stealth, swift and silent, and using the stealth skill at normal speeds without penalties.

My thesis statement:

A stealth person should be able to move as fast as a normal, non-stealth person and be more stealthy than they are in comparison to the non-stealthy person.


Basically saying that if I am running with a 0 hide and 0 move silent on my skill sheet, it is not inconceivable for someone who has 50 hide and 50 move silent to be running with something higher than a 0/0. I am not suggestion they retain their full hide and move silent skills. There would be a penalty applied. How big the penalty should be is a different argument, so long as your argument still leaves enough hide/MS to be effective (e.g., "Well fine I'll support the concept, but I suggest a -125 penalty then." Clearly you're BS and simply do not agree with the concept). Mechanically speaking, a movement speed increase while stealthed/walking is to simulate running/moving quickly since NWN will not support the mechanics otherwise.


There are some arguments against it that are pretty solid, but from my perspective boil down to "well that's why I suggested there be a penalty." That is why I formed the thesis above. With stealth in NWN, we have already given a lot of liberty. We let people walk right in front of you stealthed as if they were magically invisible. There are a lot of things assumed when someone is stealthing more than simply "I walked quietly and hid behind a house. Now you cannot see me." I mean we literally pull shadows around us and disappear from plain sight, can walk next to someone completely invisible, can stealth next to someone mere inches away and hear private conversations as it stands. It is not too far of a leap to suggest that we can also 'run while maintaining some stealth' with what all is already possible.


Whether or not the Team would care to implement something like this is up to the team of course. But I am curious of your thoughts on this topic in both a fantasy-setting themed conversation, as well as how and if it would be applicable in Avlis from your perspective.

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Re: From AtT Suggestions: Stealth Speed

PostAuthor: Trigger » Fri Dec 09, 2016 3:22 pm

It's a cool idea, I think it should only be implemented once you get to a certain level of sneakiness just from an RP point of view, mechanics-wise it would be pointless for someone with no stealth skills to use it, or even someone with very low stealth skills to use it until they are more accomplished at sneaking.

Things to watch would be how the movement speed increase affects encumberment (is this even a word?), i.e. can the movement decrease be negated by using stealth?

Also, would it be possible to increase the movement speed to something close to, but not as fast as normal running speed? therefore giving people an opportunity to run away...

And it may be getting complicated now, but should haste work in conjunction with this, or is it one or the other? similar question for monk-speed.
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Re: From AtT Suggestions: Stealth Speed

PostAuthor: Lance Goodman » Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:21 pm

Keep in mind this is all coming from someone with no coding skill. :D

Would it be viable to make "advanced" stealth similar to AMS? More of an RP reward, I guess.

Or... it could be a toggle (similar to current AMS, Psionic DDoor, etc.) but, when it's active, there's some calculation at a % chance to fail (minimum x%) that's influenced by your Dex/Hide/MS scores. Sure, you can try to move faster and stay hidden, but every once in a while even the best people fall on their butts. ;)

Or maybe it could require a feat investment, like skill focus for a x% increase, epic for a y% ? Being able to move quickly and quietly isn't easy, after all; focusing on that skillset would be the trade-off.

In each case, I don't think one should be able to be stealthed with no penalties at all. Dedicated spotters are rare (double so with the current server populations), and there aren't many other counters to it that give low-spot/listen people a fair chance. If there's no penalty, it's basically "hey, sneaky-types should get free at-will invisibility," which I'm not sure is a good idea.

TL;DR: There could be a few potential options to make something like this happen, but there has to be a trade-off other than just putting a lot of skill points in.

Hopefully some of that's helpful!

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Re: From AtT Suggestions: Stealth Speed

PostAuthor: SaraEF » Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:33 pm

Speaking from a purely technical standpoint: messing around with stealth in any meaningful way is super unlikely.

Don't let that stop you having ideas though!
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Re: From AtT Suggestions: Stealth Speed

PostAuthor: Korennya » Fri Dec 09, 2016 5:27 pm

%decrease in stealth proportional to % increase in movement speed. I.e. If going from walking to running is a 50% increase in speed, your ms/hide takes a 50% hit. Getting yourself hasted would further reduce by proportional percentage.

Using a feat isn't great. That negatively impacts 40's who are not able to grow further. Unless it's added in the same way that custom hips hide was giving to the SD class. Having something more ams style would be nice as it gives equal opportunity to all charscters. Plus the additional benefit of allowing "finished" builds to continue to grow in a meaningful way.
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Re: From AtT Suggestions: Stealth Speed

PostAuthor: Darkfire » Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:28 pm

SaraEF wrote:Speaking from a purely technical standpoint: messing around with stealth in any meaningful way is super unlikely.

Don't let that stop you having ideas though!



Agreed, which is why with the right stuff it's not really messing around with stealth itself, but adding stuff on the outside that just effects it. Granted I am very rusty in my NWScript. Once I get a chance I'll poke around for theory. There's certainly a few speedbumps in what I am envisioning code-wise. The lexicon site is being reported as being hacked but hopefully that's just a false alert. Think I have a local one still on my pc somewhere too.
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