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Gnolls: More Dogs or Hyenas?

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Gnolls: More Dogs or Hyenas?

PostAuthor: yorlik » Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:24 pm

Hiya team!

IG and IIRC it recently came up if Gnolls are Dog-like or Hyena-like.
My practical experience is, that Gnolls on Avlis are generally perceived as "Dogs".
The Avlis Wiki says that "Gnolls are dog-headed humanoids ...".
On other (DnD-ish) Wikis it is said Gnolls have Hyena like heads.

I think we need clarification about this, since it had caused an IG squabble that basically could not be resolved,
because of the ambiguity here.

I personally have built and storied my Gnoll Arrarrrk as a caniforme (Dogfather stuff and stories),
because I was relying on the Avlis Wiki and my IG experience and I tried to make it possibly compatible with Avlis Lore, though the "Dogfather" is not really an official Avlissian deity of course...

Background biological info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnivora#Phylogenetic_tree
The Wikipedia article makes clear, that Hyenas are closer to cats than to dogs.
So it has quite some significance. I used the biological systematic to create a
part of Arrarrrks story.

Honestly - if he is a Hyena the story is all good for the bin because completely
delusional and I think, it would make me remort the PC and ditch the story.

Clarification would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers
~Y.
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Re: Gnolls: More Dogs or Hyenas?

PostAuthor: Shardthepious » Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:16 pm

Well if you refer to the Wiki, it's mentionned they have dog-like head.. and that ''non-canine'' race have difficulties to understand them. Putting them in the canine realm.

On the other side, the D&D Gnoll are hyena-headed and mostly are a kind of hyena hybrid.

I think here we have to take Gnoll as a race of it's own and don't try to make ressemblance to animal. Is the wiki refering them as dog-like instead of hyena-like is a mistype? i don't know.
A gnoll is a gnoll. as an elf is not an ''human-like headed creature'' ;)

that's my two cents
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Re: Gnolls: More Dogs or Hyenas?

PostAuthor: Stormhammer » Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:48 pm

Clarification - avlissian gnolls biologically are no different than your run-of-the-mill DnD gnoll. They are here just as they are in the rest of dnd.
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Re: Gnolls: More Dogs or Hyenas?

PostAuthor: yorlik » Wed Oct 08, 2014 6:57 am

So are the heads hyena-like or dog-Like?

Apart from one recent exception I have never ever heared anyone calling Arrarrrk hyena like.
Every greeting and little provocation goes like: "Hello dog!" or "*tosses a bone*" or "*throws a stick*" ... all actions referring to the dog-like realm.

I personally see it like shard, that Gnolls are a race on their own, but dog-like.

In the story of my Gnoll his belief is that his ancestors were made from the remains of the mortal coil of his god when that god ascended. But there is that conflict with cat-like beings and Hyenas fall into that realm.

So the more-a-dog or more-a-cat question is crucial.
Suggestions?
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Re: Gnolls: More Dogs or Hyenas?

PostAuthor: diermace » Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:25 am

Oh come on Arrk just take a look a Rubin, there is no way you are pretty enough to be a cat> :wink:
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Re: Gnolls: More Dogs or Hyenas?

PostAuthor: Shardthepious » Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:46 am

yorlik wrote:So are the heads hyena-like or dog-Like?

Apart from one recent exception I have never ever heared anyone calling Arrarrrk hyena like.
Every greeting and little provocation goes like: "Hello dog!" or "*tosses a bone*" or "*throws a stick*" ... all actions referring to the dog-like realm.

I personally see it like shard, that Gnolls are a race on their own, but dog-like.

In the story of my Gnoll his belief is that his ancestors were made from the remains of the mortal coil of his god when that god ascended. But there is that conflict with cat-like beings and Hyenas fall into that realm.

So the more-a-dog or more-a-cat question is crucial.
Suggestions?

Storm said it all. Like in dnd, so hyena like. And by the way, according to your wiki thing saying hyena are more cat.. Would be to say that a walruss is more like a dog...

But to be clear: dnd = hyena. So avlis= hyena
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Re: Gnolls: More Dogs or Hyenas?

PostAuthor: yorlik » Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:34 am

Since when is DnD the bible of Avlis, when the Avlis Wiki has been telling something different for more than 7 years ????

And shall we now ignore how Gnolls are generally perceived and being treated on Avlis by the majority
just because it is not DnD and now see them as hyena-like??

I mean I could cope with any situation somehow (though admittedly it'd give me quite a headache how), but now, after years of the Avlis wiki telling "dog-like" and most players treating Gnolls as dog-like why suddenly force it into a DnD compatible situation just because some DnD rules tell so?
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Re: Gnolls: More Dogs or Hyenas?

PostAuthor: Stormhammer » Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:31 am

As shard said, gnolls are gnolls; they are, have been, and will be treated as gnolls. They are not different from gnolls elsewhere. The information on the wiki to my assumption was compiled by someone who did not realize that hyenas were not canine, considering to me at least on glancing, hyenas kinda look like they have dog heads; and hyenas do yip and howl and all sorts of non feline vocalizations - so i can see how that'd be done. That is my assumption, not fact, but it seems reasonable. It's never really been a big deal. Not saying gnolls should start meow-ing..theyre gnolls; theyre not cats, and theyre not dogs.

You asked for clarification and you have it.
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Re: Gnolls: More Dogs or Hyenas?

PostAuthor: yorlik » Wed Oct 08, 2014 12:00 pm

Honestly - I feel deeply griefed.
[rant]Kinda sucks when you can neither rely on the the Avlis wiki nor IG experiences
and have to bow to some scholarly DnD crap.
F... the Avlis Wiki ... :finger: [/rant ]
Gotta ponder what to do.
Basically I can now completely throw away all the effort I put into Arrarrrks story and which relied on Wiki+IG experience.
Last edited by yorlik on Wed Oct 08, 2014 12:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Gnolls: More Dogs or Hyenas?

PostAuthor: Gorgon » Wed Oct 08, 2014 12:46 pm

Does this mean Orleron's description has been officially changed?

http://www.avlis.org/viewtopic.php?f=98&t=45448
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Re: Gnolls: More Dogs or Hyenas?

PostAuthor: Zerub » Wed Oct 08, 2014 12:54 pm

I have a question about your background for you and the team. Did the team approve all of that? It looks like Avlis lore, but I would think that would need to be team approved since it is talking about creation of dieties and such. If it was approved then it looks like gnolls really are for sure a type of dog.

On a side note, I have always considered hyenas to be dogs in RL and DnD. I did not realize they were neither canine or feline, but a group of their own. They sure look like dogs. Also, the majority or PCs that I have been with IG refer to gnolls as dogs and I assume that is because of their heads looking like dogs.

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Re: Gnolls: More Dogs or Hyenas?

PostAuthor: SaraEF » Wed Oct 08, 2014 1:00 pm

If we're going to use Orleron's ancient description rather than the D&D one, where would that leave the more-recent Nightfang Clan? We have a whole in-game area with well-codified lore that matches the base D&D Gnoll (hyenoid characteristics, etc).
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Re: Gnolls: More Dogs or Hyenas?

PostAuthor: Dull Fred » Wed Oct 08, 2014 1:08 pm

In any case, I don't know if it's so much of a disaster for your characterisation whichever way it's decided.

The dog-like hyenas splitting off from their treacherous cat kin sounds like it might be only a minor re-write of the dog-father story to me.
Also, a dog is a subservient human bred animal and you wouldn't want to be that? If it's decided they're hyenas, then I'd suggest you just slightly re-name your dog-father - maybe Arrarrk realises he has mistranslated the gnollish name into Common and wants to remove that subservient impression? Fang-father or something? X:| That's up to you.

And then: that other creatures call your and other gnolls "doggy" is just because they're pig-ignorant, right? :)
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Re: Gnolls: More Dogs or Hyenas?

PostAuthor: yorlik » Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:00 pm

Zerub wrote:I have a question about your background for you and the team. Did the team approve all of that? It looks like Avlis lore, but I would think that would need to be team approved since it is talking about creation of dieties and such. If it was approved then it looks like gnolls really are for sure a type of dog.

On a side note, I have always considered hyenas to be dogs in RL and DnD. I did not realize they were neither canine or feline, but a group of their own. They sure look like dogs. Also, the majority or PCs that I have been with IG refer to gnolls as dogs and I assume that is because of their heads looking like dogs.

Scott


I created Arrarrrks story completely independant from any team approval.
But I intentionally tried to make it compatible with what is known about Gnolls so,
that it could possibly become Avlis lore without necessarily becoming Avlis lore.

So the dogfather could be just an imaginary deity of the pack Arrarrrk comes from.
If the team would like the story and approve it it could become Avlis lore,
but I'd never demand such a thing. I just created the possibility.

I introduced the killing spell story so, that an evil power was used to destroy him but actually created the dogfather.
This could be historically wrong, but still contain a grain of truth (the Xenon / Maleki thing).
The meaning of this was basically, that religion is mostly a subjective thing and humans (or humanoids in this case)
cannot really prove the existence or nonexistence of a god/deity.

The problem for me occurs, when the assumptions on which I based the story (like Gnolls being dog-like) are overthrown and I can now completely throw away everything.

Seeing Arrarrrk as Hyena-like would mean the whole Hyaned treachery part of the story would make no sense anymore, it would also ignore what was written in the Avlis wiki (The Orleron description) and it would ignore how Gnolls are generally perceived as well as how I and others have been playing their Gnolls.

Honestly I see no reason to use any DnD thing all at a sudden, when it has been different on Avlis for ages.
But I don’t want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can’t help that," said the Cat: "we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad."
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Re: Gnolls: More Dogs or Hyenas?

PostAuthor: Xaila » Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:28 pm

Well....it was my understanding that on Avlis, the existence of deities is very much a proven thing. Its not like the real world where all of that is subjective and unprovable. The gods on avlis are very much known entities that unquestionably exist. I'm just having trouble seeing how an unproven/made up deity would even be plausible?
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Re: Gnolls: More Dogs or Hyenas?

PostAuthor: krackq » Wed Oct 08, 2014 3:13 pm

Semi-derailment but kind of related.. don't the gnolls kind of have someone they look up to (without being too spoilerish).. or is that more the NightFang clan's own thing?
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Re: Gnolls: More Dogs or Hyenas?

PostAuthor: GunnJ » Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:10 pm

I feel you are really overthinking this Yorlik. Yes, hyenas are found to be their own creature and not a type of dog, but for who knows how long they were thought to be a dog-like creature. Wasn't it only until DNA samples were run that this was discovered?

So you probably should change the name of the Dog-father, but is the rest really so very different?


Edit: Ohhhh Great Galloping Caesar's Ghost's Maiden Aunt, there is another thread about this? Fine. I think both threads sum up to "please stop overthinking this."
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Re: Gnolls: More Dogs or Hyenas?

PostAuthor: Blackravenfeather » Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:00 am

A formal response was issued. Please take your discussion to another thread that's not ask the team.
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Re: Gnolls: More Dogs or Hyenas?

PostAuthor: Plethora » Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:43 am

added here for prosperity



Yorlik

here is the official Word.

Gnolls are neither in genetics hyenas, or dogs.. They are GNOLLS.


Dog head/Hyena head, are pure descriptive phases.

IN NO WAY are gnolls RELATED to either dogs, or hyenas, or playtapuses.. or elves, or the tooth fairy or even Valokians.. They are no more related to either /or/ or the next thing.....

They are GNOLLS.

Thats all. Dont think so much.. Dogs and hyenas are descriptive terms.
theyre not cats, and theyre not dogs.


x
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Re: Gnolls: More Dogs or Hyenas?

PostAuthor: Plethora » Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:52 am

Also,

I hate to micro manage.

I do not expect my team to micro- manage

My mother always said, "As a manager, never ask anyone on your staff to do anything you wouldnt do yourself, .. this is what makes a great boss"

A reminder to all, though i will bump elsewhere, Ask the team is only to be replied to by team members.

If you have further clarification, then please post.. after a team member answers

Discussion.. will be removed by the DM team

I do not have enough time to micro manage this forum, nor should I, or any member of my team, but we will, starting from now again, if we connot trust the community to follow the few simple rules of this forum.

ALWAYS.. these discussions, and threads from AtT are taken to DM forums. You will wait, and then ask for clarification. I despise deleting peoples opinions but do not take my easy going nature for non-vigilance

Be excellent to each other.

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