Server Totals
Le'Or - (1)
Deglos - (1)
Mikona - (1)
Wilderness - (1)
Visimontium - (1)
Elysia - (0)
M'Chek - (0)
Ferrell - (0)
Underdark - (0)
Total players: 5
Gallery
  • Search for the Spiritkin Thistle
    Album name: DM Events
    Uploaded by: Ronan
    Uploaded: Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:07 am

Links Menu

from ATL about making FAKE guild items

General discussion about Avlis

Moderators: Nighthawk4, Dungeon Masters

from ATL about making FAKE guild items

PostAuthor: sinn » Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:51 pm

spool32 wrote:In fact opinion is outside the question, as there is a rule: Altering armor or robes to match a Guild's items is not allowed, period.


spool32 wrote:
Bensinn: Sorry... feel free to hit Back, copy your reply, and then paste it into a new GD discussion which I promise I won't turn into AtT.


My reply (retyped) to

http://www.blackdagger.com/viewtopic.ph ... highlight=

Seems odd that say an assassin cant pay somebody to alter some normal robes to look like Ivory robes so he can get close to a mark that is a member of the order

Or that a one cant make FAKE guard guild armor and bully the merchants into selling things to him cheaper

Or mayhaps one character would like to impress the ladies acting like a honorable Paladin of Gorethar dressed in his fake OOG stuff

Its not like these fake guild items will let you through a plot door….

*shrugs*
you can run all your life, but not go anywhere.
User avatar
sinn
Elder Sage
 
Posts: 4135
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2003 4:58 pm
Location: CA, USA (GMT - 8 hours)

PostAuthor: solitude_peace2 » Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:53 pm

... sounds like a reasonable thing for the Sneaky to do....
~~~~~~~-------------~~~~~~~ K@ fan
User avatar
solitude_peace2
Apprentice Scholar
 
Posts: 872
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 4:08 pm
Location: USA East Coast
Timezone: East Coast, USA

PostAuthor: Darkfire » Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:58 pm

told beeyotch
Last edited by Darkfire on Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
CoEMF :devil: :feuer:
WrathOG777: This is a roleplaying game. There is no such thing as winning or losing. Only playing.
Player of Dameon Nepirtas
User avatar
Darkfire
Major DM
Major DM
 
Posts: 13684
Images: 3
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 4:50 pm
Location: Missouri
Timezone: CST (-5 GMT)

PostAuthor: chamalscuro » Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:00 pm

I would guess the Team is concerned with the 'slippery slope' in this case.

Imagine if a fellow in fake guild armor walked through an open plot door, or violated the spy rules. Yes, there are already rules in place for those events. But fake guild outfits have huge potential for violations, better to not open that door, imo.

Edit: Read Darkfire's post. I'm thinking I read the AtT wrong. *watches*
User avatar
chamalscuro
Platinum Contributor
 
Posts: 1686
Joined: Thu May 19, 2005 2:33 am
Location: Arizona, USA
Timezone: GMT -7

PostAuthor: spool32 » Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:05 pm

The rule stems from the War, when fake guild items became a problem for various reasons...

There are a number or IC and OOC reasons why it's still in place. Here are just a few:

  • Forged guild armor would ICly be hard to make and easy to spot, but that kind of distinction isn't possible in the game engine. In fact, in the game engine it's easy to make an identical copy, and impossible to spot without a DM.
  • Many guilds have members who do not all know each other - opportunities for pillaging Guild property through deception could be detrimental to the gaming experience.
  • Absent a DM, it's impossible to "prove" a fake item. The items have become a badge of authenticity that would be dramatically devalued by allowing people to copy them.

In fact, it's quite likely that the items WOULD let you through a plot door, by virtue of fooling someone who doesn't normally play in your timezone. With a DM, many things are possible in theory, including all the scenarios you listed. Currently, there's no desire to change this such that players can perpetrate forgeries on each other with no DM present, simply through using the sewing machine.

-spool32
User avatar
spool32
Team Member; Retired with Honors
 
Posts: 13283
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 6:12 pm
Location: Austin, TX
Timezone: GMT -6

PostAuthor: spool32 » Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:08 pm

Darkfire wrote:I think what Spool said is being misunderstood. Which this means it would have to be re-stated by a team member.

Round two from GD to AtT, anyone? :lol:


I may be wrong, but that's what I thought about it... I think he was stating more a long the lines of "don't dye non-guild armor to look like guild armor if you are in the guild. Wear the guild armor, not an imitation"...

or something like that.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

:D


I'm communicating a broader statement: You may not dye/alter non-guild items to look confusingly similar to guild items, under any circumstances, for any reason whatsoever. Conversely, you may not dye/alter guild items to look like anything other than their standard palette appearance, under any circumstances, for any reason whatsoever*.

-spool32

* yes, I know about that one exception.
Success will be lovely, but you will have to go out and get it! Failure will invite itself in.


Your donation makes this sig possible!
Monthly donations help you Lose Weight Fast!
DM 101
User avatar
spool32
Team Member; Retired with Honors
 
Posts: 13283
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 6:12 pm
Location: Austin, TX
Timezone: GMT -6

PostAuthor: Darkfire » Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:11 pm

spool32 wrote:
Darkfire wrote:I think what Spool said is being misunderstood. Which this means it would have to be re-stated by a team member.

Round two from GD to AtT, anyone? :lol:


I may be wrong, but that's what I thought about it... I think he was stating more a long the lines of "don't dye non-guild armor to look like guild armor if you are in the guild. Wear the guild armor, not an imitation"...

or something like that.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

:D


I'm communicating a broader statement: You may not dye/alter non-guild items to look confusingly similar to guild items, under any circumstances, for any reason whatsoever. Conversely, you may not dye/alter guild items to look like anything other than their standard palette appearance, under any circumstances, for any reason whatsoever*.

-spool32

* yes, I know about that one exception.



Alright, my apologies then.
CoEMF :devil: :feuer:
WrathOG777: This is a roleplaying game. There is no such thing as winning or losing. Only playing.
Player of Dameon Nepirtas
User avatar
Darkfire
Major DM
Major DM
 
Posts: 13684
Images: 3
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 4:50 pm
Location: Missouri
Timezone: CST (-5 GMT)

PostAuthor: Eef » Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:11 pm

Well, that'd be a whole different matter, and I'd say rule 0 covers what can be done.

Good: wearing a black robe with red trim looking a bit like an Ebony robe and burning fairies at Elf Gate, to be subsequently killed by the real Ebonies (both PCs and NPCs) who do not appreciate being impersonated, even if it is to burn fairies.

Debatable: wearing a fake Ebony robe and actually pretending to be an Ebony while burning fairies.

Bad: being an Ebony and wearing a fake guild outfit because it's really über and you don't want to merge it with your real guild outfit.

Really Bad: violating spy rules or guild housing rules in any outfit. It doesn't matter if you're wearing a fake guild robe or going stark nekkid, you're breaking rules.
User avatar
Eef
Team Member; Retired with Honors
 
Posts: 2976
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 11:35 pm
Location: Either the plane of Shadows or kidnapped by nymphs
Timezone: GMT +1

PostAuthor: pp » Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:23 pm

Eef wrote:Debatable: wearing a fake Ebony robe and actually pretending to be an Ebony while burning fairies.


Didn't spool32 just say people definitely can't do that?

Bad: being an Ebony and wearing a fake guild outfit because it's really über and you don't want to merge it with your real guild outfit.


I understand that that's against the rules, and I won't do it. What I don't understand is why. What's the problem that occurs if an Ebony mage walks around in a fake Ebony robe? He's not pretending to be in a guild he's not in.

pp
Scholar of Fools
 
Posts: 403
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 5:31 am

PostAuthor: Darkfire » Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:24 pm

pp wrote:
Eef wrote:Debatable: wearing a fake Ebony robe and actually pretending to be an Ebony while burning fairies.


Didn't spool32 just say people definitely can't do that?

Bad: being an Ebony and wearing a fake guild outfit because it's really über and you don't want to merge it with your real guild outfit.


I understand that that's against the rules, and I won't do it. What I don't understand is why.

What's the problem that occurs if an Ebony mage walks around in a fake Ebony robe? People might think he's an Ebony mage?



" Forged guild armor would ICly be hard to make and easy to spot, but that kind of distinction isn't possible in the game engine. In fact, in the game engine it's easy to make an identical copy, and impossible to spot without a DM"
CoEMF :devil: :feuer:
WrathOG777: This is a roleplaying game. There is no such thing as winning or losing. Only playing.
Player of Dameon Nepirtas
User avatar
Darkfire
Major DM
Major DM
 
Posts: 13684
Images: 3
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 4:50 pm
Location: Missouri
Timezone: CST (-5 GMT)

PostAuthor: pp » Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:26 pm

Darkfire wrote:
pp wrote:
Eef wrote:Debatable: wearing a fake Ebony robe and actually pretending to be an Ebony while burning fairies.


Didn't spool32 just say people definitely can't do that?

Bad: being an Ebony and wearing a fake guild outfit because it's really über and you don't want to merge it with your real guild outfit.


I understand that that's against the rules, and I won't do it. What I don't understand is why.

What's the problem that occurs if an Ebony mage walks around in a fake Ebony robe? People might think he's an Ebony mage?



" Forged guild armor would ICly be hard to make and easy to spot, but that kind of distinction isn't possible in the game engine. In fact, in the game engine it's easy to make an identical copy, and impossible to spot without a DM"


But why does it matter when he's actually in the guild?

"Ha ha, fooled you! This not actually my Ebony robe, but an entirely different robe!"
Last edited by pp on Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

pp
Scholar of Fools
 
Posts: 403
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 5:31 am

PostAuthor: Eef » Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:26 pm

Yeah, spool posted that while I was typing. So it's bad too.
User avatar
Eef
Team Member; Retired with Honors
 
Posts: 2976
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 11:35 pm
Location: Either the plane of Shadows or kidnapped by nymphs
Timezone: GMT +1

PostAuthor: spool32 » Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:28 pm

Mostly because it defeats the purose of offering guild items. You're supposed to wear the robe because it's an IC honor to have it, and it means something. It should mean something more important than the desire to wear Master's Adventurer's Robes because they're teh uber.

Additionally, we provided a whole system whereby you CAN use your uber gear and wear your guild item at the same time, for a minimal cost, and even make it unlootable as a bonus! You just have to commit to your guild is all. If by chance or design some RP arc causes your PC to leave, well... frankly, the RP ought to be more important than whatever gear you merged.

-spool32

Eef: I'd say it's bad if it's just on your own, or if it's vs. PCs... but with prior DM awareness much more is possible.
Last edited by spool32 on Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
spool32
Team Member; Retired with Honors
 
Posts: 13283
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 6:12 pm
Location: Austin, TX
Timezone: GMT -6

PostAuthor: pp » Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:31 pm

I now understand!

pp
Scholar of Fools
 
Posts: 403
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 5:31 am

PostAuthor: sinn » Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:46 pm

thanks for the info peeps... I understand were the team is coming from now...

guess I won't be making my fake Hand of Dru'El stuff in an effort to steal all their mellow smoke :)
you can run all your life, but not go anywhere.
User avatar
sinn
Elder Sage
 
Posts: 4135
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2003 4:58 pm
Location: CA, USA (GMT - 8 hours)

PostAuthor: ninja » Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:47 pm

Their mellowsmoke is pretty cheap. You can probably get it for a good tip for Blossom.
Interested in being an interviewee or an interviewer for a community interview, send me a PM!
Go here for your custom DM item.
"Mages are over powered" - Spool32, previous head DM, said 300 times during Austin meet.
User avatar
ninja
Legacy DM
Legacy DM
 
Posts: 6605
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 1:01 am
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Timezone: GMT -5

PostAuthor: llhht » Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:50 pm

Last time I pai...checked, Blossom's tips aren't cheap.
Yarr!
User avatar
llhht
CCC
CCC
 
Posts: 1502
Images: 1
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:12 pm
Location: Tyler TX
Timezone: Central (-5)

PostAuthor: Katroine » Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:55 pm

Just so I am totally clear...

It is not okay to dye an old robe white and green and wear a white hood and wander around a city to not be identified, as it is like a Healer robe?

Not pretending to be one, but wearing that as a disguise to say, prance around Elysia and pick flowers.
"However friendly they may seem, they must be corrupt to the core, and I must never forget that."
User avatar
Katroine
Team Member; Retired with Honors
 
Posts: 7449
Images: 0
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2002 3:55 am
Location: Playing with Negarai
Timezone: Mountain

PostAuthor: Micah » Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:02 pm

Katroine wrote:Just so I am totally clear...

It is not okay to dye an old robe white and green and wear a white hood and wander around a city to not be identified, as it is like a Healer robe?

Not pretending to be one, but wearing that as a disguise to say, prance around Elysia and pick flowers.


lol ... go for it. I can't even remember how many times retarded little magelings wearing black were accused of being Ebonies in Elysia, even though no Ebony in their right mind would waste their time killing pixies for fun.


...except maybe Costas. And Amand. And Oorayv. And Fade.
User avatar
Micah
Lead Producer
 
Posts: 6880
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2004 7:15 pm
Location: Houston, TX
Timezone: GMT-5
DM Avatar: Pelar

PostAuthor: pincushionman » Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:10 pm

I would argue that making/using a counterfeit Guild uniform falls under the exact same rules as Spying, in the "spirit of the rules" sense. Certainly, the Spying rules say stuff only about "transfer of information" and somesuch, but I don't see how
...an assassin [pays] somebody to alter some normal robes to look like Ivory robes so he can get close to a mark that is a member of the order

[guy makes] FAKE guard guild armor and bully[s] the merchants into selling things to him cheaper

...one character...impress the ladies acting like a honorable Paladin of Gorethar dressed in his fake OOG stuff

is really any different in terms of its effect on the fun of everybody involved. We don't have spying rules because it shouldn't happen -- quite the opposite, in fact; guild-guild spying should be rampant. We have the rules because the DM's need to be able to arbitrate. If characters can impersonate guild members, then spying can occur without the need for a character to actually join the guild he's spying on (if he's already in, then he already has the genuine article), making it that much harder on the DM's to keep track of.

Would everyone actually spy if they had counterfeit uniforms? Probably not. Would some people? Yes. Do you want to deal with it happening to your Guild? I'd wager no.
Suuhoroh . Shaahesk fighter . Journeyman armorwright, Avlis Arms and Armor Association . Corporal, M'Chek Army Blackhawk Company
Cookie (Amakiir) . Kobold chef extrordinaire - he thinks

lizard shields viewtopic.php?t=53138
timezone calc http://www.worldtimeserver.com/time_converter.aspx
AAAA recruitment viewtopic.php?t=62035
User avatar
pincushionman
Apprentice Scholar
 
Posts: 979
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:59 pm
Location: Big, flat Kansas (GMT-6)

PostAuthor: Eef » Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:12 pm

Micah Ormane wrote:
even though no Ebony in their right mind would waste their time killing pixies for fun.


...except maybe Costas. And Amand. And Oorayv. And Fade.


I resent that! Oorayv never has fun.
User avatar
Eef
Team Member; Retired with Honors
 
Posts: 2976
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 11:35 pm
Location: Either the plane of Shadows or kidnapped by nymphs
Timezone: GMT +1

PostAuthor: AyounTheDark » Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:19 pm

Is it allowed to wear stolen/acquired guild armor/robes as means of disguise, or do they fall under the same rule? Not allowed?

Or are they simply undroppable, and hence not possible to do the above?

Whisper
High Fury Templar
Champion of Ra-Ghul
Master of the AKN
Quartermaster of AAAA

Webninjas are stealthy. Be careful.
Member of the Ghostie fan club
Grunt wrote:I'll third this for fuck's sake. Who gives a shit about sanity. :D

AyounTheDark
Platinum Lifer
 
Posts: 2656
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 7:11 pm
Location: Fortress of untamed Fury in Ysgard. (GMT +1)

PostAuthor: KaiRal Windspar » Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:26 pm

AyounTheDark wrote:Is it allowed to wear stolen/acquired guild armor/robes as means of disguise, or do they fall under the same rule? Not allowed?

Or are they simply undroppable, and hence not possible to do the above?
It is completely against the rules to steal ANY Guild item, and any item picked up by mistake must immediately be returned to a DM or the player.

That's in the Rules forum covered here and Pickpocketing is covered here.
Last edited by KaiRal Windspar on Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
~ Yantri
The most futile thing in this world is any attempt, perhaps, at exact definition of character. All individuals are a bundle of contradictions -- none more so than the most capable. -Theodore Dreiser, author (1871-1945)
_________________
User avatar
KaiRal Windspar
Elder Sage
 
Posts: 3638
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 5:36 am
Location: Seattle

PostAuthor: llhht » Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:29 pm

bensinn wrote:Seems odd that say an assassin cant pay somebody to alter some normal robes to look like Ivory robes so he can get close to a mark that is a member of the order

A quick glimpse of the future to clear you up on the Assassin class...

The upcoming Avlis sourcebook wrote:The assassin is a master of dealing quick, lethal blows with horrible DC's until crazy high levels. Assassins often function as spies, informants, killers for hire, shovelers of Rothe dung, or agents of vengeance. Their skill in a variety of dark arts allows them to carry out missions of death with shocking, terrifying precision. Rogues, monks, bards, and Sereg are ideal candidates to become assassins.

Requirements

Alignment: Any evil

Skills: Hide 8, Move Silently 8

Wear black clothing and shadowed black hood.


Talk little, nod much, and generally do little more than keel stuff.

Make schemes in secret caves/Elf Gate to keel people and dry loot their hawt gear.


:P

Katroine wrote:Just so I am totally clear...

It is not okay to dye an old robe white and green and wear a white hood and wander around a city to not be identified, as it is like a Healer robe?

Not pretending to be one, but wearing that as a disguise to say, prance around Elysia and pick flowers.

IMO, as long as you made sure there was no way it could be mistaken for a real robe/armor of such group, it'd be alright.
Yarr!
User avatar
llhht
CCC
CCC
 
Posts: 1502
Images: 1
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:12 pm
Location: Tyler TX
Timezone: Central (-5)

PostAuthor: AyounTheDark » Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:36 pm

KaiRal Windspar wrote:
AyounTheDark wrote:Is it allowed to wear stolen/acquired guild armor/robes as means of disguise, or do they fall under the same rule? Not allowed?

Or are they simply undroppable, and hence not possible to do the above?
It is completely against the rules to steal ANY Guild item, and any item picked up by mistake must immediately be returned to a DM or the player.

That's in the Rules forum covered here and Pickpocketing is covered here.


That explains yeah.

I guess the rules above eliminates the possibility of anyone being able to disguise as a member of any other guild, unless supervized by a DM, correct?
At least as far as looking like a guildmember, with regards to clothing/outfits.

Whisper
High Fury Templar
Champion of Ra-Ghul
Master of the AKN
Quartermaster of AAAA

Webninjas are stealthy. Be careful.
Member of the Ghostie fan club
Grunt wrote:I'll third this for fuck's sake. Who gives a shit about sanity. :D

AyounTheDark
Platinum Lifer
 
Posts: 2656
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 7:11 pm
Location: Fortress of untamed Fury in Ysgard. (GMT +1)

Next

Return to The Avlis Project: General Discussion

Who is online

Registered users: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot]