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Stealth

General discussion about Avlis

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PostAuthor: Gorgon » Fri Apr 21, 2006 3:37 pm

Whoops :oops: Didn't notice it was the rogue forum. Here are the links to Bioware's forum, and PsiOmega copied the rest .

Gorgon wrote:There was a thread in the Bioware forums last year that shed some light (sorry for the pun) on stealth modifiers. Supposedly a lot more goes into the checks than most people would think.

http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic ... 2&forum=42

It is mostly guesses and such, but the input from the Bioware folks and a few others was interesting. It is a rather long read, and someone was nice enough to put together most of the key parts here (4th post down from the top).

http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic ... um=42&sp=0

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PostAuthor: Gorgon » Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:13 am

Bumping an old thread, but Nob found something in the Bioware forum that should be of interest to all sneaks and anyone trying to find them. Bio-folks actually telling us the numbers and things behind it all, rather than just hints. (I'd post it in the rogue forum, but the stuff above has all the links)

http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic ... 5&forum=42

It is a long read, but just keep an eye out for any of the stuff said from the folks who work there. I'm sure a condensed version will be up soon :)

*edits* Most long time sneaks should be drooling at the info here. 8-)
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PostAuthor: Chemical-Burn » Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:30 am

*drools but many numbers confuse me, so i drool randomly about*

And am i wrong or did it say light sources(as in weapons AND darkvision) hinder hide? Or was it saying that it gives you the bonus spot modifier.. and then i wonder IF the person has to be in the light radius or you get the modifier no matter what..

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PostAuthor: Marc van Gaal » Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:35 pm

Jorik Ambrose wrote:
croton wrote:
Khaelindra wrote:Neither... it's more than a point or two... 8)


*makes a note that his hide must be 145 or greater to avoid being seen by you"


Surely following the same rules that applied to figuring out the max spot, then max hide must be 128 as well?


In theory yes, but I doubt you will be able to pull this off.
If there was a buff or potion similar to TS that would give you +50 in hide, then yes.... but from stacked buffs (non dex that is) you can only get about 20 hide points as far as I know.

So no matter how hard you max out your hide... someone with maxed out spot + TS can always spot you. :(
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PostAuthor: Trueguardian » Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:46 pm

Marc van Gaal wrote:
Jorik Ambrose wrote:
croton wrote:
Khaelindra wrote:Neither... it's more than a point or two... 8)


*makes a note that his hide must be 145 or greater to avoid being seen by you"


Surely following the same rules that applied to figuring out the max spot, then max hide must be 128 as well?


In theory yes, but I doubt you will be able to pull this off.
If there was a buff or potion similar to TS that would give you +50 in hide, then yes.... but from stacked buffs (non dex that is) you can only get about 20 hide points as far as I know.

So no matter how hard you max out your hide... someone with maxed out spot + TS can always spot you. :(



Your point is taken...but a little off. Unless it has changed, the the cap on item AND/OR spells is +50. I would think if someone can get their hide into the 100's they have gear that hits the cap at +50 and therefore balance the TS + gear cap of +50. It is the 20 over that is hard to overcome....

anyway...let the beatings continue...

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PostAuthor: Talwin Hawkins » Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:15 pm

Trueguardian wrote:
Marc van Gaal wrote:
Jorik Ambrose wrote:
croton wrote:
Khaelindra wrote:Neither... it's more than a point or two... 8)


*makes a note that his hide must be 145 or greater to avoid being seen by you"


Surely following the same rules that applied to figuring out the max spot, then max hide must be 128 as well?


In theory yes, but I doubt you will be able to pull this off.
If there was a buff or potion similar to TS that would give you +50 in hide, then yes.... but from stacked buffs (non dex that is) you can only get about 20 hide points as far as I know.

So no matter how hard you max out your hide... someone with maxed out spot + TS can always spot you. :(



Your point is taken...but a little off. Unless it has changed, the the cap on item AND/OR spells is +50. I would think if someone can get their hide into the 100's they have gear that hits the cap at +50 and therefore balance the TS + gear cap of +50. It is the 20 over that is hard to overcome....

anyway...let the beatings continue...


Yep. TS=50Spot (high level caster)

A rogue can get the +50 cap but would have to have amazing items, and be ALL OUT STEALTH. Playing a character who can hit this cap means all my items have a bonus to hide (and MS).

Our perdy little mages can cast there TS spell and then kit themselves out in the OMGWTFBBQ!!!oneoneon1111 pwnage gear to boot.

And then you STILL have to beat the D20 which is rolled every six seconds!

I LOVE THIS DEAD HORSE!!
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PostAuthor: Li'll Divvil » Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:33 pm

For those who like numbers here's a copy of the "woo" post.

Ok, I got a PM from fuzzy_shortyking about this, so I thought I'd scour the old BioWare programmer list for people who'd worked on NWN. After three or four attempts, I managed to snag the inimitable Brenon "Kilimanjaro" Holmes, who was able to give me the low-down on Detect Mode and all of its secret, inner workings. We tried to involve Craig "Uncanny Frankie Valli" Welburn in the conversation, but the network gods we worship were not appeased by our offering of stale Doritos and croissants. Here's the breakdown I received from Mr. Holmes, which is probably about as "official" as any info gets. He went through old NWN code and everything!

Passive (default) mode
Trap detection radius: 5ft
Trap detection rate: 6 seconds (every round)
Trap detection roll: d20
Spot/Listen roll: d10

Active (Detect) mode
Trap detection radius: 10ft
Trap detection rate: 3 seconds (twice per round)
Trap detection roll: d20
Spot/Listen roll: d20

Stealth checks
Player detects stealth: 5 times per second
Player rolls for hide/move silently/spot/listen: 6 seconds
NPC detects stealth: 4 seconds
NPC rolls for hide/move silently/spot/listen: 6 seconds


Added on is The dev. comment about passive/active ranks used
Unfortunately, I forgot to check up on the active vs. passive ranks that are used... I can confirm what someone mentioned earlier. You do only get half your spot and listen ranks when in passive mode.


Followed by the full load from the Dev

Listen/Move Silently:

* Automatically cannot detect silenced creatures
* Can only detect invisible (or when you're blind) creatures within the max attack range.
* Cannot hear sanctuaried creatures
* If there is something between you and the target (including creatures) there's a modifier of +5 DC for every 40cm of thickness in outdoor areas
* In indoor areas, if the LOS is blocked and the target is within 4 tiles (dfs search) there's a modifier of +2 DC
* Area listen check modifiers
* +10 DC if you are in combat
* +5 DC if the target is standing still
* -5 DC if you are standing still
* +1 DC for every 3 meters of distance to the target
* Relative size modifiers (Tiny: +8, Small: +4, Medium: 0, Large: -4, Huge: -8)
* Favoured enemy bonuses

Spot/Hide In Shadows:

* Automatically cannot detect invisible creatures
* Automatically cannot detect anything while blinded
* Area spot check modifiers
* During Night, if you do not have a light on you (including weapon lights and darkvision) there is a +5 DC modifier
* During Night, if the target has a light on them, there is a -10 DC modifier
* For stealthed players only, there is a +5 DC if they are in the back arc
* +10 DC if you are in combat
* +5 DC if the target is standing still
* -5 DC if you are standing still
* Relative size modifiers (Tiny: +8, Small: +4, Medium: 0, Large: -4, Huge: -8)
* Favoured enemy bonuses

There might be some additional modifiers, however I can't recall any off the top of my head and without doing an in depth search through the code I probably won't find them all. Hopefully this answers any additional questions you folks had.


And more

Nope, you're correct. There's actually a third mode I just found today (I was bored) that I'd forgotten about, it's a "passive active" mode . It's activated when you're standing still, so you get the benefits of being in active mode when not moving.

The distances for trap checks are 3.33 meters (about 10ft) for passive mode and 6.66 meters (about 21ft) for active. So it sounds about right, I think I may have converted the values incorrectly when I told Stan earlier.


So if someone has more time than me, please summarize to your hearts content.
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PostAuthor: bandittt » Tue Mar 20, 2007 5:21 pm

Talwin Hawkins wrote:
Trueguardian wrote:
Marc van Gaal wrote:
Jorik Ambrose wrote:
croton wrote:
Khaelindra wrote:Neither... it's more than a point or two... 8)


*makes a note that his hide must be 145 or greater to avoid being seen by you"


Surely following the same rules that applied to figuring out the max spot, then max hide must be 128 as well?


In theory yes, but I doubt you will be able to pull this off.
If there was a buff or potion similar to TS that would give you +50 in hide, then yes.... but from stacked buffs (non dex that is) you can only get about 20 hide points as far as I know.

So no matter how hard you max out your hide... someone with maxed out spot + TS can always spot you. :(



Your point is taken...but a little off. Unless it has changed, the the cap on item AND/OR spells is +50. I would think if someone can get their hide into the 100's they have gear that hits the cap at +50 and therefore balance the TS + gear cap of +50. It is the 20 over that is hard to overcome....

anyway...let the beatings continue...


Yep. TS=50Spot (high level caster)

A rogue can get the +50 cap but would have to have amazing items, and be ALL OUT STEALTH. Playing a character who can hit this cap means all my items have a bonus to hide (and MS).

Our perdy little mages can cast there TS spell and then kit themselves out in the OMGWTFBBQ!!!oneoneon1111 pwnage gear to boot.

And then you STILL have to beat the D20 which is rolled every six seconds!

I LOVE THIS DEAD HORSE!!


I love this dead horse too....

In NWN the most stealthy class is the Ranger as they get spells to boost hide/MS.... so the arguement of a rogue being detected by someone/thing with magic seems odd to me since they do not use magic, and are NOT the best in hide/MS.....

*shrugs and beats the mutilated horse*
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PostAuthor: Gorgon » Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:03 pm

Stealth checks are (at best) every 4 seconds, not 6. Max skill is some silly #, not 128....

One of the Bio-guys wrote:The only limit for skill ranks + modifiers is probably the limit of the data storage for it... so, MAXINT (2,147,483,647). DC modifiers will always apply, there isn't any ceiling.


Has anyone had a chance to test this out yet for listen?

* Can only detect invisible (or when you're blind) creatures within the max attack range.


It sounds rather silly to hear invis people better with a longer reach (I doubt a ranged weapon counts, but it would explain a few strange "bugs").

*edit* According to the info, PC's check for stealth 5 times a second, but that sounds like overkill. NPCs check once every 4 seconds.
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PostAuthor: chamalscuro » Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:57 am

Thanks Gorgon for bringing this to our attention.

It looks like the NWN wiki is up to date now.
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Re: Stealth

PostAuthor: PsiOmega » Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:17 am

Here's a more detailed post about stealth modifiers, posted some time after the first.
Original post: http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic ... 15#4836078
Blargh. Had all the modifiers typed up, and then went for lunch... stupid forum timeouts .

Listen/Move Silently:

* Automatically cannot detect silenced creatures
* Can only detect invisible (or when you're blind) creatures within the max attack range.
* Cannot hear sanctuaried creatures
* If there is something between you and the target (including creatures) there's a modifier of +5 DC for every 40cm of thickness in outdoor areas
* In indoor areas, if the LOS is blocked and the target is within 4 tiles (dfs search) there's a modifier of +2 DC
* Area listen check modifiers
* +10 DC if you are in combat
* +5 DC if the target is standing still
* -5 DC if you are standing still
* +1 DC for every 3 meters of distance to the target
* Relative size modifiers (Tiny: +8, Small: +4, Medium: 0, Large: -4, Huge: -8)
* Favoured enemy bonuses

Spot/Hide In Shadows:

* Automatically cannot detect invisible creatures
* Automatically cannot detect anything while blinded
* Area spot check modifiers
* During Night, if you do not have a light on you (including weapon lights and darkvision) there is a +5 DC modifier
* During Night, if the target has a light on them, there is a -10 DC modifier
* For stealthed players only, there is a +5 DC if they are in the back arc
* +10 DC if you are in combat
* +5 DC if the target is standing still
* -5 DC if you are standing still
* Relative size modifiers (Tiny: +8, Small: +4, Medium: 0, Large: -4, Huge: -8)
* Favoured enemy bonuses

There might be some additional modifiers, however I can't recall any off the top of my head and without doing an in depth search through the code I probably won't find them all. Hopefully this answers any additional questions you folks had.
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