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Stealth

PostAuthor: jordenk » Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:31 am

quick question that im sure any team member can awnser, i havnt dealt much with rogues/shadowdancers... and i was wondering after hearing a discussion about the difference between bioware TS and the TS that we use on Avlis and characters have access, can a stealthed character ONLY be detected through spot and listen? or does TS give bonus? or outright spot them? If it has to make a roll to spot them? then how does the persons hide/ms, counter the ts?
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PostAuthor: TripleAught » Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:56 am

http://www.avlis.org/wiki/index.php/Magic:True_Seeing

This kind of question can be answered by all sorts of smart people in the community.
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PostAuthor: Xandor Amakiir » Wed Apr 19, 2006 12:51 pm

So that means a minumum of 50 hide to sneak past a a TS caster who has no spot skill points. ((the max +30 of TS and a natural 20 on the d20)) But be aware there are folk who can do way better then this ;)...
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PostAuthor: PsiOmega » Wed Apr 19, 2006 12:57 pm

It's actually +2 Spot/caster level with a minimum of 30 and a max of 50 unless that has changed.

So 30-50 depending on level + d20.
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PostAuthor: Croton » Wed Apr 19, 2006 12:59 pm

Xandor Amakiir wrote:So that means a minumum of 50 hide to sneak past a a TS caster who has no spot skill points. ((the max +30 of TS and a natural 20 on the d20)) But be aware there are folk who can do way better then this ;)...


just to break this out a little...

TS caster level 1-15 = +30 to Spot..... you need 50 hide to beat this all the time.

TS caster level 20 = +40 spot ....... you need 60 hide to beat this all the time.

TS caster level 25 or higher = +50 Spot.... you need 70 hide to beat this all the time.

This doesn't take the TS caster Spot rank skill points, or bonuses from Wisdom. The TS caster doesn't get any extra bonuses from gear above the +50, as that bonus category is capped at +50.

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Just for fun, the maximum Spot for a 40th level character is

+43 Ranks
+2 feat
+3 feat
+10 feat
+20 wisdom (taking greater wisdom feats too)
+50 TS

=128 ?

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PostAuthor: RCon » Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:06 pm

croton wrote:Just for fun, the maximum Spot for a 40th level character is

+43 Ranks
+2 feat
+3 feat
+10 feat
+20 wisdom (taking greater wisdom feats too)
+50 TS

=128 ?

I think certain races also get +1 or +2 bonus. I know my little halflings gets a bonus or two to Move Silently, and I think Listen.
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PostAuthor: Marleh » Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:14 pm

And dont forget, Hide only works while you are standing still. You need to have lots Move Silent points for whenever you walk about, which are countered by a listen check.
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PostAuthor: Khaelindra » Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:26 pm

Xandor Amakiir wrote:So that means a minumum of 50 hide to sneak past a a TS caster who has no spot skill points. ((the max +30 of TS and a natural 20 on the d20)) But be aware there are folk who can do way better then this ;)...



*whistles innocently* 8)


:shock:

*looks at Croton's post, sighs*

Aw...still have some points to go... :?


:wink:
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PostAuthor: Croton » Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:12 pm

Khaelindra wrote:
Xandor Amakiir wrote:So that means a minumum of 50 hide to sneak past a a TS caster who has no spot skill points. ((the max +30 of TS and a natural 20 on the d20)) But be aware there are folk who can do way better then this ;)...



*whistles innocently* 8)


:shock:

*looks at Croton's post, sighs*

Aw...still have some points to go... :?


:wink:


Just curious, does that mean that I still have to figure in more points, so max is greater than 128 or that you still have a point or two to go before you get to 128?

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PostAuthor: bpottery » Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:57 pm

croton wrote:
Just curious, does that mean that I still have to figure in more points, so max is greater than 128 or that you still have a point or two to go before you get to 128?


Add in item bonuses as well? I think they would stack with TS.
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PostAuthor: Talwin Hawkins » Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:58 pm

Only up to +50. Once at +50 that is the maximum.
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PostAuthor: Fire Monkey » Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:06 pm

Not that this is a touchy subject or anything :wink:
My character has stealth and can cast TS so I am really angry about this one! ^^
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PostAuthor: Khaelindra » Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:13 pm

croton wrote:
Khaelindra wrote:
Xandor Amakiir wrote:So that means a minumum of 50 hide to sneak past a a TS caster who has no spot skill points. ((the max +30 of TS and a natural 20 on the d20)) But be aware there are folk who can do way better then this ;)...



*whistles innocently* 8)


:shock:

*looks at Croton's post, sighs*

Aw...still have some points to go... :?


:wink:


Just curious, does that mean that I still have to figure in more points, so max is greater than 128 or that you still have a point or two to go before you get to 128?


Neither... it's more than a point or two... 8)
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PostAuthor: Croton » Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:19 pm

Khaelindra wrote:Neither... it's more than a point or two... 8)


*makes a note that his hide must be 145 or greater to avoid being seen by you"

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PostAuthor: Jorik Ambrose » Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:09 am

croton wrote:
Khaelindra wrote:Neither... it's more than a point or two... 8)


*makes a note that his hide must be 145 or greater to avoid being seen by you"


Surely following the same rules that applied to figuring out the max spot, then max hide must be 128 as well?
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PostAuthor: Final Shinryuu » Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:18 am

Marleh wrote:And dont forget, Hide only works while you are standing still. You need to have lots Move Silent points for whenever you walk about, which are countered by a listen check.


Incorrect.
Your stealthed character is making opposed Hide AND Move Silently checks every round in which they are stealthed. Everything in the area makes opposed Spot and Listen checks against you.

If they make *either* the Spot or the Listen check, then they can detect you, but the degree to which they can varies.

If they make their opposed Spot check against your Hide, than they can see and totally detect you as normal. You must break line of sight with them to hide again, unless you have Hide in Plain Sight.

However, if they only make the Listen check, and not the Hide, then they only see a ghostly outline of your character avatar, indicating where you are. They can target and attack this, but it is treated as you having full concealment (50% miss chance). If you are detected by Listen, and not Spot, than in subsequent rounds they must continue to make successful listen checks, or lose the ability to detect you.
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PostAuthor: Croton » Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:46 am

Jorik Ambrose wrote:
croton wrote:
Khaelindra wrote:Neither... it's more than a point or two... 8)


*makes a note that his hide must be 145 or greater to avoid being seen by you"


Surely following the same rules that applied to figuring out the max spot, then max hide must be 128 as well?


sort of... the max spot I can find is 132 actually

+2 elf
+2 alertness
+2 blooded
+3 skill feat
+43 skill ranks
+10 epic feat
+20 wisdom
+50 TS

for hiding

it is the same, except no racial bonus and no 1st level only bonus feat either.

One last point, how does Bard Song work into this? Does the bonus from bard song add on top of the +50, or is it included in that?

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PostAuthor: p0m » Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:52 am

I'd assume it adds on top of the 50.
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PostAuthor: pedsdmd » Fri Apr 21, 2006 1:55 am

Do you have to be in search/detect mode for spot to be activated? Or is it a automatic thing that happens whenever a person who is stealth is near you?

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PostAuthor: PsiOmega » Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:09 am

Detect mode is always active for elves so with those you don't have to worry and they'll always get their full Spot/Listen/Search.
As for other races, unless they are in detect mode they'll only have half their Spot/Listen/Search bonus.

Checks are done at the beginning of each round (every 6th second) by all races.
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PostAuthor: Gorgon » Fri Apr 21, 2006 6:21 am

PsiOmega wrote:Checks are done at the beginning of each round (every 6th second) by all races.


There are a ton of things that factor into the checks, and they don't just happen once a round. *Quotes himself in another thread to save typing it again*

http://www.avlis.org/viewtopic.php?p=768470#p768470

(2 posts down has the condensed version of some of it)
Last edited by Gorgon on Sat Aug 09, 2008 6:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostAuthor: mortzestus » Fri Apr 21, 2006 6:40 am

Final Shinryuu wrote:However, if they only make the Listen check, and not the Hide, then they only see a ghostly outline of your character avatar, indicating where you are. They can target and attack this, but it is treated as you having full concealment (50% miss chance).


The target is not considered as having concealment and there is no miss chance applied to attack rolls. Game mechanics wise, the only different between spotting and hearing a creature in stealth is that you cannot target it with spells if you only can hear it.
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PostAuthor: Fire Monkey » Fri Apr 21, 2006 3:25 pm

Gorgon wrote:
PsiOmega wrote:Checks are done at the beginning of each round (every 6th second) by all races.


There are a ton of things that factor into the checks, and they don't just happen once a round. *Quotes himself in another thread to save typing it again*

http://www.avlis.org/viewtopic.php?p=768470#768470

(2 posts down has the condensed version of some of it)


Thats a restricted forum ;)
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PostAuthor: PsiOmega » Fri Apr 21, 2006 3:27 pm

tid242 wrote:Thanks Gorgon, interesting indeed!

I'll repeat the bioware post here for conveneince sake.

bioware thread wrote:
From Craig Welburn (developer),



"There are a large number of factors that affect a persons ability to Spot a creature.

At night:
- If the person hiding has a light source the spot check is adjusted by 10 in the spotters favor.
- If the spotter doesn't have a light source, the spotter gets a 5 penalty to spot the hiding character.

The spotter's spot skill.

The hiding creature's hiding skill.

Bigger creatures have a harder time hiding than smaller creatures (depending on relative size).

The direction the spotter is facing with regards to the direction the hiding creature is in.

Whether or not the spotting character is actively searching, or is in combat.

Whether or not you are blind.

Whether or not the hiding creature is invisible.

How far away the hidden character is.

Whether or not the hiding creature is standing still or not.

Whether or not the spotting creature is standing still or not.

Whether or not the spotting creature has a "Favored Enemy" bonus.

etc.

Its not a "simple" spot vs hide check, there is a large number of factors taken into acount when a spot check is made.

Craig"



And then this from Foxbat--



"Posted 04/21/05 22:32:39 (GMT) by Acrodania
Craig? Could you point us at the scripts that actually govern this so I can see? Pretty please? I'm curious and its taking a long time to physically open each script in the toolset to check them ------------

You won't find it in the scripts, fistly it's impossible since the engine offers no function access to making a critter visible to some and invisible to others. Secondly there is no event for this code to hook onto, the heartbeats reference nothing like this, etc. All of this mess is hardcoded.

Now that we have confirmed it actually is different under lots of situations maybe I'll code up a test module that can run these things in the 100s to deduce score adjustments from statistical trends. Then again, maybe It'll have to wait until after the end of the semester.
_________________


OK. And last, this from Ima Dufus (clearly, he's not.)



"Hi all.

I built a spot-ometer over the weekend to check some of these numbers and such. It turned out to be a lot harder than I would have thought due to an oddity with the Bioware stealth system (more on that later).

I can confirm the following:

- Carrying a torch at night reduces your hide skill by 10. (Haven't had time to check other light-emitting objects.)

- Moving (vs. standing still) effectively reduces your hide by 5.

- Versus NPCs facing away from you your effective hide skill is increased by 5.

- Your hide skill MIGHT be reduced during daylight hours (not sure how much, probably around 5)?

NOTE: None of these things show on your character sheet.

Now to the oddity I mentioned...

It turns out that your hide skill is not re-rolled on every opposing check. It is only rolled on occasion, and the resulting number is then used as the DC for ALL opposing spot checks. Exactly when it is re-rolled is a mystery (at least to everyone but Craig). What this means is that your hide skill varies by up to 19 whenever you hide. So one time you might roll a 20 when you hide and can move around with a torch without anyone seeing you. The next time you might roll a 1 and all of a sudden everyone is spotting you just standing still.

Like I said, there are some things that cause this hide DC to be re-rolled. I didn't have time to fully test this, so it could be crap, but it looked like simply moving to within the next range bracket of an NPC (which I think was 10 metres) caused the dice to be re-rolled. (It could have been some other reason though, I really don't know.)

I did notice in testing that a PC that was quite happily standing there hidden for hours was suddenly spotted when it turned into day again (ie. 7 am rolled around). This might mean that the hide is decreased during daylight (which would make sense). But it could also mean that the hide DC is re-rolled when night turns into day. Who knows.

Anyway, the point is that the persistent randomness makes it very difficult to measure some of these things, as the DC will vary considerably on each test. It also means that the circumstancial modifiers are eclipsed by this one roll, which probably explains why people (like myself) who have been playing for 2 years plus have never noticed them. Basically my players (who want to hide) just pile on the magical items until their hide skill is REALLY high, which seems to do the trick.

This was just FYI. If any of this is incorrect, hopefully Craig can give the real facts.

Seeya.

P.S.: IF the hide skill is reduced during daylight hours then I found a bug. Even though the area I was using was marked as interior and underground, and was set to night-time only lighting, the PC was still easier to spot during the day.
Edited By Ima Dufus on 04/27/05 05:52:01"



I sincerely hope those posts had something to do with your question, because if they didn't I just posted the longest bit of ranting nonsense in the history of this forum. But I particularly thought Ima's insight into how the checks are rolled was useful.


-tid242
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PostAuthor: Marleh » Fri Apr 21, 2006 3:32 pm

First, no, not incorrect, merely not in detail. Hide checks are countered by spot, move silently is countered by listen. My warning was to not put umpteen points into hide and ignore MS.


Now then, here is what Gorgon mentioned -

Edit: Bah, beaten to it by thaaaaat much!
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