Server Totals
Mikona - (2)
Elysia - (1)
Wilderness - (1)
Ferrell - (0)
Le'Or - (0)
M'Chek - (0)
Deglos - (0)
Visimontium - (0)
Underdark - (0)
Total players: 4
Gallery

Links Menu

Death and dying

General discussion about Avlis

Moderators: Nighthawk4, Dungeon Masters

PostAuthor: tindertwiggy » Tue Jul 23, 2002 6:36 am

hrmmm, I see Vroks point, however, I think there should be a penalty for dieing whether you are raised or not. Dyign should be avoded at all costs.

So how about splitting the exp loss into 2 parts. An initial exp loss on death, adn then a further exp loss on rebirth in the temple. If a party member chooses to raise you then you would not suffer the second exp loss, only the initial loss.

what do you think orl?

tindertwiggy
Legacy DM
Legacy DM
 
Posts: 6682
Images: 1
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2002 12:20 am
Location: Nippon

PostAuthor: Orleron » Tue Jul 23, 2002 11:07 am

I think there should be an exp loss SOMEWHERE for two reasons:

1) There is an exp loss in real pnp 3rd Ed D&D.

2) An exp loss will put a dent in the incredibly fast rate at which you are all levelling in a world that doesn't even have monsters that give more than 200 exp yet.



Creating an exp loss for both death quest and raising is easily coded. I think it may be wisest to just level the playing field and make exp loss the same in all cases whether you're raised, resurrected, or you do the death quest.

There are two advantages to having a cleric raise you as it stands already:
1) You can get back to your body MUCH faster. i.e you don't have to do any quests, you don't have to run around naked.

2) You can get back into the fight MUCH faster if it's still going on. Raise Dead --> Cure Serious Wounds x2 --> Loot corpse/Equip items --> Start fighting again alongside buddies if the battle that killed you is still going on.

I mention it this way because it may be a very important factor when we put the guild system in. Getting people raised and back into the fight quickly will help determine the outcome of a fight over land later on.

So the way I see it, clerics are very useful already.
"Truth has no form."
--Idries Shah

World of Avlis Page

Avlis Project FAQ
User avatar
Orleron
World Advisor, Co-founder
World Advisor, Co-founder
 
Posts: 14905
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2001 9:48 pm
Timezone: GMT-5

PostAuthor: Silk » Tue Jul 23, 2002 3:03 pm

an ambulance service to lawful evil characters would not be in Vrok's nature.

Keep in mind, an evil character is only identified as evil by the explicit use of magics or by his actions/words. Otherwise, a good character would be more inclined to assume he is not evil. At least that's my view, Alignment is a very subjective topic.

Justification - Knowing you have a friend nearby ready to raise/ressurect you, your soul hovers near the body in hopes that the cleric will allow it to re-enter the now empty shell.

You're assuming that you have that level of control while dead. The way I've always experinced it in D&D, once you die... you lose all control and are thrown into the outer plains against your will.
Silk

Member of the MadK@t lover's group.
User avatar
Silk
Co-Founder
 
Posts: 6665
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2001 6:47 pm

PostAuthor: Vrok » Tue Jul 23, 2002 3:35 pm

Hmmm, ok, another few thoughts:

To Silk's point on in character play - well clearly, if someone dies while killing scrubbers, guards, and citizens they are going to have a very hard time convincing Vrok's deity that they ain't evil.

To Orl's point - there seem to be two separate issues. 1. Characters are advancing too fast for the server. 2. What is a proper response for dying?

On 1. I don't disagree, and have actually dramatically cut back my play time until the dwarf halls are open (and can you make sure to post the time you're running the event!). Thats partially a function of how good a job you have done in terms of putting together the world so far, inducing far too much playtime, and is good. The negative is that there are loopholes in NWN that allow higher level characters to gain more experience than they theoretically should when parties are composed. That's a loophole that should be fixed somehow.

The second point on dying is a separate argument. Proposing an exp loss to slow character advancement down may help #1 but probably makes both advancement and dying less logical. What I would argue is that probably the most logical solution is to adopt a tiered system.

Worst exp loss: you die, respawn, don't complete the quest. (E.g. - oh crap, need to get my stuff back now!). Call it 1/3 of a level or so.

Normal exp loss: you die, complete the quest, get raised or respawn. Call it the standard 200 exp per level standard in the multiplayer. Also, say this is the standard if you have been resurrected (but not raised) and don't complete the quest.

Better exp loss: you die, complete the quest, and get rezzed. Call it 100 per level. Annoying but does reflect that some deity is actually paying attention to you.

The way you've built the dying system, the example of the benefits of raising + 2 cure critical wounds doesn't work well - the problem is you're still very weak, bleeding, and need healing rather than being able to enter a battle.

I'd simply like to see SOME benefit of having a higher level cleric in the world. It feels given the champion classes that much of the clerical duties are almost duplicative, and this would be one way to keep the balance for those who would play pure clerics.

Vrok
Knight of Useless Drivel
 
Posts: 59
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2002 1:29 am

PostAuthor: Orleron » Tue Jul 23, 2002 5:59 pm

The tiered system is worth considering in my mind.

But also look at the advantages of being a high level pure cleric in pnp: Resurection. That in itself is great because it brings back the person at full hitpoints.

Other advantages to being a pure cleric would have to come in the form of roleplaying events.
"Truth has no form."
--Idries Shah

World of Avlis Page

Avlis Project FAQ
User avatar
Orleron
World Advisor, Co-founder
World Advisor, Co-founder
 
Posts: 14905
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2001 9:48 pm
Timezone: GMT-5

PostAuthor: Vrok » Wed Jul 24, 2002 3:21 am

One thing that Vrok has noticed while raising the dead is that the advantage of bringing someone back direct to combat is fairly diluted by the fact that there is a looong lag between casting the spell and grabbing the reborn soul. It is usually a 10-15 round process at least...and then they show up naked. I don't think the PNP advantage is that substantial. You need another incentive for someone to be a high level cleric...

Vrok
Knight of Useless Drivel
 
Posts: 59
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2002 1:29 am

PostAuthor: Shadow Vulture » Wed Jul 24, 2002 2:09 pm

I got really annoyed with the dying when i was on yesterday. im only lvl 1 and i can only kill a few things.

anyway, i got caught by some rats, and i had to run (as usual). i ran straight into some bandits and was killed. half hour later i was still trying to sneak past them to get my stuff back!

I got my stuff back, and alas, half my stuff was missing. :mad:

My plan was not to roleplay too much until i could back my sh*t up. (lvl4-5)

But im not going to be able to get to lvl two unless i collect sh*t loads of hair or grab whoever is on line to help me (which isnt really in the character of my Drow rogue)

The sad thing is that this has happened to me for the last three days!

Silk and orleron must be doing something right for me to keep playing. :)

keep up the good work and toss me a friggin' bone here.

Shadow Vulture
Newbie
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2002 3:36 pm

PostAuthor: Silk » Wed Jul 24, 2002 2:13 pm

How about the joy of worshipping a god, giving you devine powers while still being able to smite your enemy hand to hand?

The ability to ravage high level undead with impunity?
Silk

Member of the MadK@t lover's group.
User avatar
Silk
Co-Founder
 
Posts: 6665
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2001 6:47 pm

PostAuthor: Shadow Vulture » Wed Jul 24, 2002 2:19 pm

ill give that a go silk. thx

Shadow Vulture
Newbie
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2002 3:36 pm

PostAuthor: Silk » Wed Jul 24, 2002 2:44 pm

At Level 1, I would not be in the sewers unless I was a fighter/barbarian with power attack feat and a Great Sword. The wererat damage reduction is difficult to overcome.

A Rogue should probably stick to doing what little quests we have at level 1. We'll be adding more Rogue quests when we can.

Originally posted by Shadow Vulture
I got really annoyed with the dying when i was on yesterday. im only lvl 1 and i can only kill a few things.

anyway, i got caught by some rats, and i had to run (as usual). i ran straight into some bandits and was killed. half hour later i was still trying to sneak past them to get my stuff back!

I got my stuff back, and alas, half my stuff was missing. :mad:

My plan was not to roleplay too much until i could back my sh*t up. (lvl4-5)

But im not going to be able to get to lvl two unless i collect sh*t loads of hair or grab whoever is on line to help me (which isnt really in the character of my Drow rogue)

The sad thing is that this has happened to me for the last three days!

Silk and orleron must be doing something right for me to keep playing. :)

keep up the good work and toss me a friggin' bone here.
Silk

Member of the MadK@t lover's group.
User avatar
Silk
Co-Founder
 
Posts: 6665
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2001 6:47 pm

PostAuthor: Vian » Wed Jul 24, 2002 2:59 pm

Aren't Drow supposed to hate light?


Vian
User avatar
Vian
Team Member; Retired with Honors
 
Posts: 2719
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2002 3:17 am

PostAuthor: Vrok » Wed Jul 24, 2002 4:20 pm

Oh, those are great joys...merely that they're being largely duplicated by the champion system. Prefer to keep SOME things in the clerical bible as it were. :)

Vrok
Knight of Useless Drivel
 
Posts: 59
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2002 1:29 am

PostAuthor: Orleron » Wed Jul 24, 2002 6:08 pm

A level one should really not enter combat if they could help it. The fire beatle quest is good for just about anyone because all you need to do is kill some 4 hp fire beatles and get exp and money. There's a pretty good evil quest that involves being a courier that you could level on.

These are all tedious, I know, but more are coming. Not only that, when you DO get to level 2, you will probably be able to take on a few more things... but yeah, stay outta the sewers till at least level 3 or 4 if you're a rogue.
"Truth has no form."
--Idries Shah

World of Avlis Page

Avlis Project FAQ
User avatar
Orleron
World Advisor, Co-founder
World Advisor, Co-founder
 
Posts: 14905
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2001 9:48 pm
Timezone: GMT-5

PostAuthor: eNTrOpY » Wed Jul 24, 2002 6:20 pm

Avoid the firebeetles if you're lvl 1 wizard or sorc. The little things will eat you for lunch. Any other class should be able to do that quest without too much difficulty. Sewers, good for lvl 3ish. As long as you have a +1 weapon to deal with the damage reduction on the wererats. And you should be avoiding the bandit chief until at least lvl 6 or 7 i think

eNTrOpY
Sage
 
Posts: 1758
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2002 1:48 am
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba (GMT -6)

PostAuthor: Vian » Wed Jul 24, 2002 7:07 pm

I have to disagree ent... the bandit chief still gives me a mild problem and I'm lvl 12! :p

Its that damned Greatsword he uses... he hits harder than any other creature in the world right now... and with aimed shot he reduces your attack power...

If you are any kind of up close and personal fighter i.e. paladin, barbarian, fighter, monk, rogue, ranger, etc... I wouldn't touch the bandit chief until about lvl 8 or 9 at least!... and even then you will need some real bonus, and healing abilities.... also he just got much harder... without the ability to rest before fighting him..,.

As for magic users... well if you are good at running and casting then you could probably do it a little earlier... just don't get hit or he will flatten you in 1 or 2 hits.

Needless to say he hits for anywhere between 15 and 50+ hp!

I would watch out fighting him.

Vian
User avatar
Vian
Team Member; Retired with Honors
 
Posts: 2719
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2002 3:17 am

PostAuthor: eNTrOpY » Wed Jul 24, 2002 7:59 pm

Must be my nice maces clouding my judgemnt then :)
He isn't so tough when he is held.

eNTrOpY
Sage
 
Posts: 1758
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2002 1:48 am
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba (GMT -6)

PostAuthor: Vian » Wed Jul 24, 2002 8:16 pm

ahh yes if you can get magical items that do hold on him then by all means its no problem. :)

(same goes for mages if you can hold the chief then he isn't too hard ;))

But then you ahve to deal with the bandits and dwarven mercenaries which can be pains in the butt ;)

Vian
User avatar
Vian
Team Member; Retired with Honors
 
Posts: 2719
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2002 3:17 am

PostAuthor: Strangg » Wed Jul 24, 2002 10:00 pm

Yeah that bandit chief hits liek a truck, the only thing that hits even close to him is the Half-orc thats apwns in the slums sometimes..he is a beast.
User avatar
Strangg
Team Member; Retired with Honors
 
Posts: 4179
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2002 11:25 am
Location: Heaven

PostAuthor: Vorvodoss » Wed Jul 24, 2002 11:26 pm

You all have had great things to day. Shadow: keep plugging. If you are using ranged weapons, a few levels are yours for the taking in the Northern Slums. Just don't get in over your head and, if you can, take some low level back up (high level will rob you of xp).

Orleron: as far as planar death quest rewards go - why not offer special items or gems for the quests? That way, the reward is more material and could make rezzing less attractive. Then, rping must happen between the Cleric and the Dead PC to determine "Hey, if I die, I want to find that Death Agate." or "If you die, I'm ripping your body back to the Prime Material plane, you punk." Rping needs to be stressed over xp gain or loss.

A thought: 20th level introduces interesting problems. The obvious problem is what to do with all that power. Do you keep on killing wererats and elementals or do you try for toughter foes? Well, I say "Do neither!" Roleplay, darn it. Instead of running around and killing, work on making alliances, work to change the plot to your liking, get a party together and try to bumrush the government. There are all kinds of things you can do. If you got your xp by honest adventuring, you should have the gold to back it up. Buy a castle (forcing the Area Builders to design something). Work with the DMs to lead a party on quests of your own design. This will all have to be approved by Oleron and the gang but believe me, pre-Epic Level is not the end but only the beginning of rping. If anyone isn't clear on what I'm trying to say, ask me and I'll "coach" you. The important thing (which I will say a thousand times before getting sick of it) is that we should have fun. If you are playing a 20 level PC and you are bored...well, something's wrong. You know, you could always start a new character! Hehehe.

Well, enough of my lecture. Class is dismissed.

Vorvodoss
 

PostAuthor: eNTrOpY » Thu Jul 25, 2002 12:09 am

I'm all for roleplaying, and i really don't care if i hit 20th lvl anytime soon even though i'm close as hell. it really doesn't matter. I can't wait for my castle :) Gonna need a DM to sell me one ;)

eNTrOpY
Sage
 
Posts: 1758
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2002 1:48 am
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba (GMT -6)

PostAuthor: Vorvodoss » Thu Jul 25, 2002 12:28 am

Well, don't hold your breath. I don't think Oleron is even thinking of that stuff yet!:D

Vorvodoss
 

PostAuthor: Orleron » Thu Jul 25, 2002 1:30 am

All well said, Vorvodoss :)
"Truth has no form."
--Idries Shah

World of Avlis Page

Avlis Project FAQ
User avatar
Orleron
World Advisor, Co-founder
World Advisor, Co-founder
 
Posts: 14905
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2001 9:48 pm
Timezone: GMT-5

PostAuthor: Vrok » Thu Jul 25, 2002 2:04 am

well...back to the original topic(s) (sort of)...

what else can you do besides the dying penalty to slow down player advancement? (the rest restrictions are a good step)

how do you do this without penalizing the cleric class?

and get the quest underway so I can stop hanging out here!

Vrok
Knight of Useless Drivel
 
Posts: 59
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2002 1:29 am

Orcs

PostAuthor: Reken » Mon Jul 29, 2002 3:36 pm

Ok i died last night and spawn in a plane with a ton of orcs that just keep samking my down. Then when i did get out the followed me out of the plane and are runnign around the church.

Is that how its going to be.

Reken
Whiney Peasant
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2001 9:27 pm

PostAuthor: Silk » Mon Jul 29, 2002 4:23 pm

Funny thing about owning a castle... other people seem to want to take it from you. A castle doesn't last very long in the hands of someone who can't defend it.
Originally posted by eNTrOpY
I'm all for roleplaying, and i really don't care if i hit 20th lvl anytime soon even though i'm close as hell. it really doesn't matter. I can't wait for my castle :) Gonna need a DM to sell me one ;)
Silk

Member of the MadK@t lover's group.
User avatar
Silk
Co-Founder
 
Posts: 6665
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2001 6:47 pm

PreviousNext

Return to The Avlis Project: General Discussion

Who is online

Registered users: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot]