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Death and dying

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Death and dying

PostAuthor: Vrok » Fri Jul 19, 2002 3:16 am

Vrok died today for the first time in a while going mano-a-mano with the bandit chief and not bothering to heal himself, which is not particularly smart but interesting.

Now, a few questions.

1. Why do items seem to randomly disappear of the PC corpse? Vrok lost a rather expensive belt...

2. Multiple items always seem to compress down to a single item. For instance, if you had 5 cure light wounds potions they consistently have disappeared down to 1. Same goes for every other item...

3. The death and dying system seems to impact the outer planes - you continue taking damage once you die...very odd.

Cheers.

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PostAuthor: eNTrOpY » Fri Jul 19, 2002 3:24 am

I've noticed the same three things. Really annoyed me when i ran in, looking to grab my sword and start the fighting again only to find, no sword on corpse...
Had to run like hell. :(

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PostAuthor: Silk » Fri Jul 19, 2002 3:35 am

It's possible that the bandit took it. After all, he's a ........ bandit.
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PostAuthor: Orleron » Fri Jul 19, 2002 4:08 am

Yeah, you shouldn't lose items when you die, but I do know about the problem with the stacked items being compressed down to one.
The dying thing has been reported today also, so I'll get to work on that one too.
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PostAuthor: Vrok » Fri Jul 19, 2002 5:00 am

heh, good point on the bandit...but, well, once Vrok put chief thwackhardalot in his proper grave he did not find said belt on said properly dead corpse. perhaps the summoned spider ate it?

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PostAuthor: Silk » Fri Jul 19, 2002 1:36 pm

It's possible that the bandit gave the loot to someone else or hid it.

I'm not saying this to be a pain in the ass, I'm saying this because I'm coding advanced AI, and these are things that definately could happen.

One thing I'm trying not to do is make things just go poof...
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PostAuthor: Strangg » Fri Jul 19, 2002 2:07 pm

Did you make sure to scroll to the right when looting your corpse? I know it seems like a dumb question but it happens. Matter of fact a felow i was adventuring with "lost" two +1 longbows this way. After a bit i went and checked his corpse and sure enuf he had forgot to scroll. Luckily he was still wit me and he got them back.
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PostAuthor: eNTrOpY » Fri Jul 19, 2002 7:54 pm

Hehehe
DOH!!! That was me :(

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PostAuthor: Vrok » Sun Jul 21, 2002 8:45 pm

Ok, with Vrok having finally gained the favor of his deity enough to raise - figured it would be important to do so before evil stuff crawls up from the depths - a couple of notes.

1. When the PC is dead - not departed, but dead - raise dead does NOT work. I think I tried healing to get points above -11 and that didn't seem to do much either.

2. It does take a while to seemingly reclaim a soul from the afterlife. Sammy did become my first reclaim, and that seemed to work...although I think he was at full hps.

Anyway, just a couple of thoughts. Cheers.

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PostAuthor: Orleron » Sun Jul 21, 2002 11:04 pm

Raise dead will not work if the dead character has not hit the Respawn button yet, correct.
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PostAuthor: Vrok » Mon Jul 22, 2002 3:50 am

Hmmm. My suggestion then if you decide to implement exp/gold loss on death would be to penalize coming back through the temples and exit points - but do not penalize if you're raised by a cleric. Not sure I like the exp/gold thing, but the only advantage you have now is that you get to avoid the naked mile...

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PostAuthor: tindertwiggy » Mon Jul 22, 2002 9:20 am

correct orl,

can't get resurrected by your friendly neighborhood vrok unless you get rid of the respawn button screen.

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PostAuthor: Dupree » Mon Jul 22, 2002 12:43 pm

Dying in Avlis is pissing me off. I'm going to try harder to do it less often. Good job guys :)
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PostAuthor: Orleron » Mon Jul 22, 2002 1:12 pm

I think you hit it on the head Dupree. Dying SHOULD suck, but not overly much that you don't want to play the game anymore. But it should suck enough that you REALLY don't want to do it, which means you'll play your character in such a way that is more realistic.... know what I mean?

If you walk into a room and there's a lich, and you may be able to beat it by dying a few times, well.... You may want to run instead.

The exp penalty may or may not go in in the future. I'm thinking of putting it in though. Mainly it's because I'm seeing 13th and 15th level characters on the server already and we've only been up for about a week. That's incredible. You gusy must either be playing for hours and hours and hours, or you've found a good exp loophole that I haven't realized yet. I figure if I put in the exp penalty as per the 3rd Edition rules, you will take longer to level.

As for Raise Dead and Res, there's a rational behind it. When you die and your soul goes to its death plane, you will have to do a quest to get out (eventually). This quest will take time.... maybe not too much time, but still it will take time. During that time you may get looted or your buddies may get killed also, which really sucks. Raise Dead and Res are handy because they can rip you out of your death plane right in the middle of your quest and bring you right back to your body, instead of making you do the "naked mile".

Just like in the hard core rules, you will still incur the penalty for rezzing, but I may think about forgoing the penalty if you decide to do the death quest. That way you have a choice: You can get raised and lose exp, but you won't have to do the quest, and you won't have to run all the way back to your corpse AND you get out of your death plane really fast.

OR You can not be raised. You can do the quest and get out and be naked at the temple, BUT you won't lose any exp that way and you may even gain some by doing the quest.

Yeah, I like that. I think that's the way to do it.
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PostAuthor: Dupree » Mon Jul 22, 2002 1:31 pm

I think you hit it on the head Dupree. Dying SHOULD suck, but not overly much that you don't want to play the game anymore. But it should suck enough that you REALLY don't want to do it, which means you'll play your character in such a way that is more realistic.... know what I mean?


This is definitly what is happening. But getting to know the city, and the addition of persistent map pins has helped so much. I can't even begin to explain how nice the map pins are. At least now when I die, I have half a chance of getting back to my body. Plus, the PC's that are there are more likely to rez you then just loot you dry. Well, at least the ones I've met so far.

Basically last night's death was because I thought I was a billy bad ass. I was working over some thugs in the slums, and I got in over my head.
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PostAuthor: Strangg » Mon Jul 22, 2002 1:47 pm

There ~IS~ an XP loophole. But it is a loophole in every NWN game. It has to do with the way NWN figures party level and XP. The game gives XP based on AVERAGE party level. So let's say a lvl 10 is grouped with 3 lvl 1's, the party level is 3.25 andf the game gives the party xp as is 4 level 3's just killed that big bad meanie that really only took 3 hits form the lvl 10. Also pets count as party level so if you can cast a 1st lvl summon spell or charm a dog (dunno if the dogs are charmable) then the average party level is reduced as well. This makes things real easy for folks who can charm or summon pets because it will reduce thier overall "party level" by half if they just summon a wimpy badger or whatever tell him to go sit in a corner and get to killing. Or better yet toss a stoneskin on him if your a mage/sorc and let him go to work while you sit back and shoot your x-bow or whathave you and blast away with spells. Or if you can't, just grab a few newbies and take them on a trip thru the sewers. Some of that stuff has to give insane XP to a party with a low average number. Me and Sammy were getting some decent XP off some of the bigger mobs and we arent' anywhere near low levels. BTW that Vampire Rogue we ran into was fun fun fun...heh.
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PostAuthor: Orleron » Mon Jul 22, 2002 6:40 pm

Ah man that sucks. :) Not like I can really do anything about it though. Just a flaw with the program, although some may argue it's not a flaw.
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PostAuthor: eNTrOpY » Mon Jul 22, 2002 7:03 pm

Stangg's analysis is right, and the loophole gets bigger if the party has multiple classes that can summon the wimpy little guys.

Also this loophole seems to speed up the experience gaining of the higher lvl players more than the lower lvl ones.
I think this is because, NWN also implements a Diablo II like experience splitting by giving more experience to the higher lvl players in the party.

For example, i was helping out a 1st level player last night by showing him where to find the baddies in the city so we partied.
I'm a 16th lvl ranger (Tri'as) When showed the gangmembers, he promptly ran in - and got killed, so I waded in and bashed some skulls with my mace and then healed the poor fella b4 he dropped below -10. I asked him how much xp he was getting, he was only getting 1. I was getting 26 for Gang Members!!. So I left the party and just stood back and helped him by healing him if he ever dropped.
He was doing good for the world so i figured what the heck, help him if he gets whacked. Worked until i accidently triggered a half-orc bandit and a bandit chief (yes a chief spawns with the nasty half-orc if you're a high enough level). I promptly told him to run his ass off.

As for how I'm 16th lvl after about only a week of play, well that would be encounters of the half-orc bandit and bandit chief kind with Vian, Delith, Sammy at my side. Many many encounters...

Oh and:
"I'm seeing 13th and 15th level characters on the server already and we've only been up for about a week. That's incredible. You gusy must either be playing for hours and hours and hours, or you've found a good exp loophole that I haven't realized yet."
Well, there is a lot of the hours and hours thing happening here...probably too many

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PostAuthor: Orleron » Mon Jul 22, 2002 7:38 pm

It's really no sweat but I wonder what will happen when you reach 20th level and can't advance anymore.

The obvious answer is that you will become part of the world and lead something, but I am not prepared for that yet! :) I'm just now getting up a dungeon to cater to mid levelers! :)
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PostAuthor: Vrok » Tue Jul 23, 2002 1:24 am

Hmmm. That proposal on exp/non-exp dramatically decreases the utility of a cleric. Me no like.

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PostAuthor: Orleron » Tue Jul 23, 2002 1:59 am

How does it do that?
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PostAuthor: eNTrOpY » Tue Jul 23, 2002 2:31 am

The way i see it, and probably how vrok sees it is that you're penalizing a party with a high level cleric in it by causing xp loss from a raising.
It would likely remove any incentive to use raise dead since you'll lose xp. the long naked run isn't so bad if you can get raised BECAUSE you have a party(since you can get raised, your cleric buddy is guarding your corpse) and thus why use raise dead on your buddy and make him lose xp when he can just do the quest in the afterlife, and run back, losing no xp, possibly gaining xp from the quest in the afterlife.
Just my opinion - i don't think raising should have an xp penalty because, you shouldn't lose xp for being smart enough to team up with a good cleric.

Oh and when i hit 20th level, until you devise a plan for my part in the world, i'll probably still be trying to solve the mystery of the Daggath's followers wholesale slaughtering of citizens

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PostAuthor: Silk » Tue Jul 23, 2002 3:19 am

eNTrOpy, Interesting point. I guess that means we should make an XP penalty for death in both situations and find some other reward for fulfulling the death quest.

I'm in favor of that.
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PostAuthor: Vrok » Tue Jul 23, 2002 5:02 am

Agreed. However, part of making the system work would be how in character clerics stay - an ambulance service to lawful evil characters would not be in Vrok's nature.

I'd also suggest perhaps if you're forcing an exp loss - which I still don't like - do it on raise dead and the respawn. Figure out a way to make resurrect not have it. Much tougher spell, and anyone who gets up to 15th level as a cleric is devoted to the cause anyway...

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PostAuthor: eNTrOpY » Tue Jul 23, 2002 5:25 am

I think i'll agree with Vrok on this one, resurrection is the end all of all the raising possibilities. I mean, the whole point of the spell is to restore the dead person completely intact.


Oh and I was thinking, maybe neither raise dead or ressurection should affect xp. Make it so you can "Wait for help"
In this way, if you have a cleric as an ally raising and ressurect will make it so:
1) you won't lose xp getting raised/ressurected
2)you won't come back naked as a bird, you'll come back fully equiped, ready to go - thus no copying of items needed, creation of death corpses
3)vrok won't be sad he's not as useful as before :(

Way to justify this change: I'm sure the argument that you die, you go to afterlife just like that will come up.
Justification - Knowing you have a friend nearby ready to raise/ressurect you, your soul hovers near the body in hopes that the cleric will allow it to re-enter the now empty shell.

If you want to make a mix of the current system and my proposal maybe do this:
Make it so that you can "Wait for help" BUT only for lets say 5 rounds, then the soul has lost the strength to stay near the body and is then pulled into the afterlife.

I've got no idea whether or not my suggestion can be pulled off, but i just thought i'd let you know about it.

eNT (Tri'as)

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