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Recent Updates part II

General discussion about Avlis

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PostAuthor: bolo » Wed Jan 04, 2006 4:56 pm

Another quick question about loot drops.
Does the code somehow take into account the class of the character? I didn't think it was possible, but my sorceror got a potion of Eagle's Splendor and a wand of negative energy off of 2 chests. Just wondered if it was the code or just coincidence.

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PostAuthor: spokeydonkey » Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:15 pm

Orleron wrote:When you are epic, you have 2 choices: choose to not care about advancement, and focus on RP only. OR choose to level veeeeeerrrry slooooooowwwwwllllly regardless of whether you are a casual or hardcore player.


Actually, if you recall, before Aloro redid the xp code to give 1d4+1 xp, it used to give 1 XP for people in the upper-teens for 99% of kills, just like now. You still had powergaming going on, a lot of it in fact. And I have to say, the 1d4+1 xp/kill actually reduced the number of powergamers out there. After all, they have the same linear function of time spent camping vs. xp gained; it's just got a third of the slope it had before, so they'll take three times as long to powergame.

Don't get me wrong--I think epics should have an insanely tough time of levelling, and partying should be encouraged. This update does both of these admirably, and it's a long-needed addition for that reason. So I'm not knocking the fixes that were made. And if people think I'm just criticising this because I want to level quickly--since the war ended and my PC no longer has a good IC reason to go killing stuff for a living, I've gained 1.5 epic levels in 8 months.

My criticism is that it just drops the ball when trying to discourage camping, and making RP a desirable alternative for most epics. As long as you keep time spent camping directly proportional to XP gained, you don't do a thing to shift the encouragement off of powergaming and onto RP--that was proven in Avlis's first 2 years.
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PostAuthor: Orleron » Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:54 pm

My criticism is that it just drops the ball when trying to discourage camping, and making RP a desirable alternative for most epics. As long as you keep time spent camping directly proportional to XP gained, you don't do a thing to shift the encouragement off of powergaming and onto RP--that was proven in Avlis's first 2 years.



Time spent camping what?

Before the changes, an epic could camp ants or the Roots and get 1d4+1 per kill. Now they will get zero for those areas. Camp what?

Anything below CR10 will give an epic 0 XP. Crop rats, all the little things that some epics would kill are no longer going to yield XP. In order to camp things and get 1 XP for them, they would have to camp creatures of CR10 or higher that occur in large amounts. On the one hand, that still sucks and does not curb PG'ing that much. You're right. On the other hand, it gets the epics out of the areas where noobs are supposed to go. It's very useful for that. I would expect that we won't see any more epics camping in the Roots.

Then again, the "official" stance on PG'ing is that the DM's and staff will ignore you until you get bored and leave. So if the PG'er epics begin to camp CR10+ spawns, oh well. They won't do it forever.
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PostAuthor: Fire Monkey » Wed Jan 04, 2006 7:04 pm

I am all in favour of the principals behind the new system but I think the CR system needs a tweak too. I am speaking here as a lvl 28 character, but I have found that as you get into the higher levels the CR of creatures has no relation to how dangerous they are. A classic example are things like Drahnul's high guards and adamantium golems. Both are absolutely lethal to pretty much anyone and the latter is definitely not doable solo from my lvl 28 perspective (with much better than average gear), yet if I manage to kill them I am only rewarded with what seems to be 1d4+1 xp. That just doesn't seem to accord with the difficulty and danger involved in fighting them.

Whilst being totally in favour of the idea that you only get xp for things that are actually difficult to kill, I think what concerns a lot of people is that once you get to epic levels (in this case lvls 25+) there are so few areas that are of the right challenge, and those that are tend to be infrequented by small numbers of NPC's. I think a sad corollary of this system would be if it ended up meaning that characters of diferent levels tended to frequent totally different areas resulting in less intereaction between different level characters.

I think equally sad would be if in order to get xp, epics necessarily had to go specifically to a dungeon to find epic foe. Currently for my character, except the warrens, there pretty much isn't a single outside area in the whole of T'Nanshi and M'Chek that presents any danger (or I am guessing would give any xp). As part of your current changes I personally would like to see an additional layer of more epic spawns added to many of the spawns in outside areas such as those in the Wilderness Server. The types of spawns I mean are those such as the Drotid war spawns that used to be in NE T'Nanshi that changed according to level and contained brilliant NPC's to challenge all from the lowbies to the meanest of Epics.
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PostAuthor: PlasmaJohn » Wed Jan 04, 2006 7:56 pm

Fire Monkey wrote:A classic example are things like Drahnul's high guards and adamantium golems. Both are absolutely lethal to pretty much anyone and the latter is definitely not doable solo from my lvl 28 perspective.

Any sort of CR reassessment is going to compare the challenge to a "balanced" party. What's a "balanced" party? 1 rogue 1 mage, 1 cleric, 1 fighter (or rough equ.). A CRx critter is considered "challenging" for that party makeup and level. If you solo said encounter and prevail, congratulations, you did something tough. However, do not expect much beyond an "atta-boy".

Yes, there are things out there that need some fine tuning. We'll get to it. Be careful what you wish for though. Getting to it may mean: replace it.
Last edited by PlasmaJohn on Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostAuthor: Snow » Wed Jan 04, 2006 7:57 pm

Rouge! :shock:

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PostAuthor: PlasmaJohn » Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:02 pm

Snow wrote:Rouge! :shock:

Yep, a rouge rogue dammit.

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PostAuthor: Glofindel » Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:34 pm

I am ALL for anything put in plcae to allow me to go out with my students and everyone gets a bit of exp.
I SO want to keep traveling with them and do not want them to be discouraged, as we have a lot of fun, but it takes hours for us to go on an adventure, and I do not want them, on an OOC level, to get bummed.
I personally have no problems with things as they are right now, but I love to craft also, and for some reason, I still get cookies now and again.
Any change that encourages my students to party with me (or anyone else for that matter) is VERY welcome.
I honestly hope if any more tweaks are done, it favors this concept.
More incentive to party is just the bomb IMO and I hope to see the team put in more.
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PostAuthor: CPU » Wed Jan 04, 2006 11:59 pm

Orleron wrote:On the other hand, it gets the epics out of the areas where noobs are supposed to go. It's very useful for that. I would expect that we won't see any more epics camping in the Roots.


We, as Team members and Players, understand the stress the recent change in the XP code created. Fair enough on all sides. I do have sympathy for those who were vocal and those who provided feedback, because if I weren't on the Team, as a player I probably would have been the one screaming and ranting louder then anyone else! Change is hard, and the system changed was one of the primary systems of reward. Understand, it wasn't done lightly, and it wasn't done for a lark.

The Team has had more then enough DM / watchlists reports of ~some~ Epics running wildly around Newb areas, camping spawns, thus forcing the newbs out of those areas. The solution is for DM's to either "up" the spawns until the campers they discovered learn their lesson about camping (what a waste of DM time) or DM's ignoring those players / characters outright. However, this doesn't help the newb reclaim those areas especially if a DM is not present.

Since those areas were built for new players, not level 20+ looking for a quick XP boost - with no possibility of even being slightly scratched, this should resolve the issue 24/7 and give the newb folks back the areas designed specifically for them - Newbs not Epics.

There are many valued players / characters on all spectrums of the character level scale. The idea was never to punish Epic characters, just stop those that camp newb areas from doing so, and to continue to reward those who don't, and to also further encourage partying. As always, the Team needed some time to assess and tweak things in this (obviously) important Avlis system.

Hopefully now that the code has been re-adjusted, things will settle down and vast majority of those other Epics who do RP, who do party up, and do contribute to the Wealth of Avlis - will still get their XP and better gold drops when partied up with lower, higher and mid level characters, and even when alone- when appropriate challenging creatures are around.

There are still a few small bugs and probably some minor adjustments to be made here and there. Please be patient. While the adjustments for this have been a high priority (thanks Deider - less then 24 hours turn-a-round for code writing once the problem areas were identified and solutions proposed), we only have so many people who can work on so many projects at one time. Thanks goes out to those who helped point out the problems with the initial code, and thanks to the Team for resolving problems and still keeping it fun for everyone. Avlis is still the best!
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PostAuthor: Grunt » Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:19 am

CPU,

Well said.

and 'Nuff said.

Thank you again, team.

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PostAuthor: Moredo » Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:02 pm

Deider wrote:BTW, this change does not go for booze - they'll still drop in singles :)


Booze drops in stacks on Wilderness, not sure if that was planned. But other than that the new lootsystem is awesome. I'll post more as I get to test it more :)
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PostAuthor: p0m » Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:04 pm

And Ferrell.
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PostAuthor: Moredo » Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:34 pm

Okay, been dungeoneering a bit in the Underdark. Gold drops seem to be just right, same goes with the potions - those, I've found to be somewhat rare drops, but very hot when they drop.

This is just drops from spawns, didn't find anything in the containers, not sure if I came just behind a group, or how long the containers take before they respawn, but I didn't find anything in them. :cry:

Found some 'useless' stuff, like a Wand of Lesser Summoning, which has one use of summon creature II - ie. got a 11 HP giant spider, it died quickly against the Elder Earth Elementials :wink:

Speaking of Elder Earth Elementials, it was very hot to see the first 3-4 giving extra XP, since they were a group. Not sure how that is done, but it's v. cool! :D

A suggestion would be to make stuff like caltrops, Alchemists Fire and trinkets like that (you know the one use various low damage things you throw) drop in stacks too.
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PostAuthor: Alphonse » Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:37 pm

I'm picking up stacks of half a dozen fairly high level potions from the standard bugbear heroes (not the warrens ones) in the wilderness
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PostAuthor: mortzestus » Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:51 pm

Bolo wrote:Another quick question about loot drops.
Does the code somehow take into account the class of the character? I didn't think it was possible, but my sorceror got a potion of Eagle's Splendor and a wand of negative energy off of 2 chests. Just wondered if it was the code or just coincidence.


Yes, some kinds of treasure take the character's class into account. This happened in the first OC too.
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PostAuthor: Moredo » Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:40 pm

A tiny bit more testing done,

Figured I'd snag some baubles from everybodies favourite black elf hideout while heading south, but none of the chests had loot. Again, I don't know if somebody else had just been there, or how long the chest take to respawn, but they were all empty for me.

And 0 xp from everything in the cave, even the Greater Visages, which seems a bit off since these things will hurt you, a lot (magic shield), unless you've invested in some expensive potions and/or scrolls (and have UMD to cast them).

On a side note, does glowmoss respawn on all the shrubs? I'm pretty sure there are some glowmoss shrubs I've checked every time I've passed them, over the last 2 years and not ever have they had the respawn glowmoss (respawns are 3, there are 5 after a server reset).
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PostAuthor: Deider » Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:36 am

Moredo wrote:And 0 xp from everything in the cave, even the Greater Visages, which seems a bit off since these things will hurt you, a lot (magic shield), unless you've invested in some expensive potions and/or scrolls (and have UMD to cast them).


The creatures in there are kind of a special case - they adjust to your level and get tougher. They won't give individual xp to your PC since their CR doesn't change, but you should get some kind of xp award if you kill the lot of them (unless PJ took that out). That was one of the first encounters I made.
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PostAuthor: Khaelindra » Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:50 am

FoM, core. Party of 38, 32, 27? and 7?...wiped area...nothing gave xp, while i expect the most powerful vampires and doom lords to be over CR 10. When lvl 38 left area and the last vampire from core area was killed, it gave 7 xp.

No loot.

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PostAuthor: Deider » Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:08 am

Khaelindra wrote:FoM, core. Party of 38, 32, 27? and 7?...wiped area...nothing gave xp, while i expect the most powerful vampires and doom lords to be over CR 10. When lvl 38 left area and the last vampire from core area was killed, it gave 7 xp.


For the 98346398465th time, be patient - AFAIK Elysia has yet to be updated.

No loot.


Certain types of creatures drop loot infrequently or not at all - undead is one of those types. This has not changed from before.
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PostAuthor: Fire Monkey » Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:46 pm

Deider wrote:
Moredo wrote:And 0 xp from everything in the cave, even the Greater Visages, which seems a bit off since these things will hurt you, a lot (magic shield), unless you've invested in some expensive potions and/or scrolls (and have UMD to cast them).


The creatures in there are kind of a special case - they adjust to your level and get tougher. They won't give individual xp to your PC since their CR doesn't change, but you should get some kind of xp award if you kill the lot of them (unless PJ took that out). That was one of the first encounters I made.


I have been through there a few times (not since any changes were implemented) and have never noticed an xp award after clearing the place.
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PostAuthor: Arieanne » Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:26 pm

Deider wrote:
Khaelindra wrote:FoM, core. Party of 38, 32, 27? and 7?...wiped area...nothing gave xp, while i expect the most powerful vampires and doom lords to be over CR 10. When lvl 38 left area and the last vampire from core area was killed, it gave 7 xp.


For the 98346398465th time, be patient - AFAIK Elysia has yet to be updated.

.


It is not a complaint, it is a report. No impatience in the entire post.

Peace. :)
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