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Consistency in Crafting

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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: surfer69 » Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:57 am

Can this thread just die already?
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Gorgon » Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:09 am

Micah wrote:Also, we've started tossing around ideas for getting select crafting related information into game in IC ways. I do not normally bring up teamside discussions this early, but it is motivated by this thread so I thought I would share. No details nor promises, yet. Still listening if we can keep things on the path to constructive. :-) Does anybody want to try to pull some of these other ideas together in a freshly organized way? Pick out the top two or three, see if we can refocus a bit.


The "constructive" talk is useful, as noted by the Lead Producer of all stuff Avlis. :wink:

...though I had a good laugh at Grunt's MAGIC
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: jwhite5730 » Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:39 am

Yea me as well but ....so can robes have abilities added to them in such a way as to boost strength and such and if they can, why can't Armor have the same thing? If it just boils down to Magic... :D :D :D
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Xeo » Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:32 am

jwhite5730 wrote:Yea me as well but ....so can robes have abilities added to them in such a way as to boost strength and such and if they can, why can't Armor have the same thing? If it just boils down to Magic... :D :D :D


I noticed this last night.

Tailoring: Cloth Robes/Armour - It's a form of armour and there is no max DEX cap for AC bonus. Provides the base item for enchantments and improvements to the PC. AC, DR (%) and STATS.

Armouring: Leather & Metal Armour - AC and DR (%) only.

If this was a balancing decision, then I am a bit confused as there are items IG with STATS on armour. A Fighter/Cleric/Druid based PC would love access to the their Primary STAT (STR, CON, WIS even CHA). Where a Caster/DEX AC build based PC's, like Wizard/Sorcerer/Bard/Druid/Cleric/Rogue can have access to their Primary Class STAT.

This doesn't make sense to me. Can someone please explain to us why this was designed like this? :)

P.S If I've left anything out or got it wrong, please advise me. Baby brain! }8)
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Ninjar » Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:56 am

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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Xeo » Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:51 am

Ninjar wrote:Image


I find this post insulting and disrespectful to those who have contributed to it. It's an open thread for discussion of points within the community, which the Lead Producer of Avlis and others are taking an interest.

I feel like you are devaluing my points as they are nothing. I've hardly posted much or added to this discussion.

If you don't have anything to contribute to the discussion, don't post. Do you really feel the need to post this?
Silk wrote:I don't know, I think flinging poo in a catapult could be pretty damn effective.
I know if I was on the battlefield and I got hit by a pile of shit... I'd probably go home.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: GrimlyAxefingler » Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:40 pm

Grunt wrote:Hey I'm not the only one who remembers when Avlis wasn't trying to be a Korean MMO! ;)


You mean the ones where millions of people log in to have a great time?
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: rk57957 » Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:50 pm

Xeo wrote:
jwhite5730 wrote:Yea me as well but ....so can robes have abilities added to them in such a way as to boost strength and such and if they can, why can't Armor have the same thing? If it just boils down to Magic... :D :D :D


Armor doesn't get stat bonuses because that was the way it was coded. You can chalk it up to magic, you can say maybe it is the materials, you can even get crazy and say well it's a weight issue since most armor is heavier than robes. You can't have armor with the same thing because it wasn't coded that way. Personally I don't think it's an issue. It's really easy to hit +12 to a stat, stupidly easy really. Remember armor also has a base AC rating which robes don't get so in the end it's a balancing act, is it completely fair no but that is life. You want a stat boost on your body slot wear robes you want to have something that can give you +13 to to your AC wear enchanted plate.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: jwhite5730 » Sun Aug 20, 2017 2:11 pm

rk57957 wrote:
Xeo wrote:
jwhite5730 wrote:Yea me as well but ....so can robes have abilities added to them in such a way as to boost strength and such and if they can, why can't Armor have the same thing? If it just boils down to Magic... :D :D :D


Armor doesn't get stat bonuses because that was the way it was coded. You can chalk it up to magic, you can say maybe it is the materials, you can even get crazy and say well it's a weight issue since most armor is heavier than robes. You can't have armor with the same thing because it wasn't coded that way. Personally I don't think it's an issue. It's really easy to hit +12 to a stat, stupidly easy really. Remember armor also has a base AC rating which robes don't get so in the end it's a balancing act, is it completely fair no but that is life. You want a stat boost on your body slot wear robes you want to have something that can give you +13 to to your AC wear enchanted plate.


I understand that and that was fine, but now can we not change that...I mean if cloth and robes get bonus to stats why not have armor do the same thing....Or do I have to make every fighter with a 18 dex??
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: rk57957 » Sun Aug 20, 2017 2:23 pm

jwhite5730 wrote:I understand that and that was fine, but now can we not change that...I mean if cloth and robes get bonus to stats why not have armor do the same thing....Or do I have to make every fighter with a 18 dex??


Can we change it, nope. I'm not volunteering to code anything or work on anything or QA-ing anything. Can someone else change it, sure. But then you have to ask why? And if armor can have stat bones why can't helms have damage immunity? Heck why are robes all base AC 0 when plate is base AC 8, can't we change that? Can weapons have stat bonuses? The answer to all of those is no, because that's the way it was set up, and I'm fine with that. Hells if we are going to talk about things we want why is someone with 20 caster levels able to make kits just as good as Kassha who is above 30, or even worse if Zerub suddenly had 7 mage levels he'd be able to pass Kassha in artificing might? But back to the topic at hand. I'm going to assume the why is because armor does have some built in advantages and there was a trade off for what can go on them. And as Grunt mentioned earlier, helms sucked there was really not a lot going for them so they threw on stat bonus.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: jwhite5730 » Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:06 pm

rk57957 wrote:
jwhite5730 wrote:I understand that and that was fine, but now can we not change that...I mean if cloth and robes get bonus to stats why not have armor do the same thing....Or do I have to make every fighter with a 18 dex??


Can we change it, nope. I'm not volunteering to code anything or work on anything or QA-ing anything. Can someone else change it, sure. But then you have to ask why? And if armor can have stat bones why can't helms have damage immunity? Heck why are robes all base AC 0 when plate is base AC 8, can't we change that? Can weapons have stat bonuses? The answer to all of those is no, because that's the way it was set up, and I'm fine with that. Hells if we are going to talk about things we want why is someone with 20 caster levels able to make kits just as good as Kassha who is above 30, or even worse if Zerub suddenly had 7 mage levels he'd be able to pass Kassha in artificing might? But back to the topic at hand. I'm going to assume the why is because armor does have some built in advantages and there was a trade off for what can go on them. And as Grunt mentioned earlier, helms sucked there was really not a lot going for them so they threw on stat bonus.


Ok you have a good point, why is someone with 7 levels of casting better at enchanting then 30 levels at casting....this is what I am talking about....should thier not actually be a point to level and crafting and what your crafting...
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Xeo » Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:26 pm

rk57957 wrote:
Xeo wrote:
jwhite5730 wrote:Yea me as well but ....so can robes have abilities added to them in such a way as to boost strength and such and if they can, why can't Armor have the same thing? If it just boils down to Magic... :D :D :D


Armor doesn't get stat bonuses because that was the way it was coded. You can chalk it up to magic, you can say maybe it is the materials, you can even get crazy and say well it's a weight issue since most armor is heavier than robes. You can't have armor with the same thing because it wasn't coded that way. Personally I don't think it's an issue. It's really easy to hit +12 to a stat, stupidly easy really. Remember armor also has a base AC rating which robes don't get so in the end it's a balancing act, is it completely fair no but that is life. You want a stat boost on your body slot wear robes you want to have something that can give you +13 to to your AC wear enchanted plate.


If this is the reason why, then absolutely no problem at all. If it's some deep coded thing, then fair enough. I thought it was a Avlis Designed choice, like many others thought (I believe, I could be wrong).

So I'm 100% cool with that and thank you for explaining it. :D
Silk wrote:I don't know, I think flinging poo in a catapult could be pretty damn effective.
I know if I was on the battlefield and I got hit by a pile of shit... I'd probably go home.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Gorgon » Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:18 pm

*Disclaimer*
Yes, I'm on the dev side of stuff, and yes I see a lot of the reasons why things are done, but I don't work on crafting updates because they would affect my own PCs. Everyone on the team gives input on everything though (No "I" in team and all that).

So this is only my take on a few things as a player of a crafting toon (I'm not going to stick an 'In My Opinion' on every line here, but assume I did).


--

Realism really shouldn't be a thing in this discussion when we are talking about magic. How can a spell add +8 AC to any armor or robes, or DR/DI or anything else? How can a ring or belt, or helm even (or hood *coughs*), give crazy-good full body DR? Grunt's MAGIC response is all the justification it needs.

If you want some attempt at realism there, then you'd be looking at nerfing much of the existing system, which I doubt would please a lot of folks (some others might like it though :P ) .

Why can't everything have every perk? In a few cases, it is game limitations, but almost anything can be worked around. Balance between classes and other stuff was never a rule or guideline in Avlis, and that has been stated several times by the people in charge. That being said, if everything had every perk, it would break many things for game play (DI stacking just being one crazy uberness). So design choices had to happen, but as recent updates (and Micah's replies here) have shown, things are always being tweaked and discussed. DMs also have to always be better than crafters for rewards, so some things may never get added to crafting. If a PC could make anything a DM can, you might as well go play the single player mods.

If everyone keeps on being constructive here, perhaps something will come from it, but there are never any guarantees until it is live (even then a few rare things have been undone). Make suggestions, and see how it goes. :wink:

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- OK, I won't.
- Sorry, I just posted something. Whoops.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: jwhite5730 » Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:26 pm

How about an alternitive, allow armor to have one primary stat and cloth to have what it has, this would allow the gap between wearing armor as a fighter and cloth as a wizard to come closer to gether....I am not familar with the crafting stuff but that is not a big change. At least I hope not. :D :D :D
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: krackq » Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:40 pm

Just to keep in mind changes like this are not just simple, as its a whole process. It requires back end CCC discussion and approval.. pros..cons.. etc which is where some of the decisions like these are ironed out. Then someone that is knowledgeable with nwn coding has to make code changes.. which then have to be documented and submitted... then the changes have to be integrated and compiled into test modules and then upload them to QA server instances... then those in QA group can go in and test the changes per documentation to verify everything works as intended... if everything passes, then the changes have to be integrated and compiled into all 9 server modules.. then uploaded to all the servers. In a nutshell that's the super simplified version of a change to anything.. and that's if its straightforward and doesn't have any gotchas or other issues or failures along the way.. or stumble during discussions, etc. It requires a number of people to make a change. This is pretty much how anything gets pushed out live in Avlis. I'm not trying to be discouraging as this is what CCC and QA do to get things delivered but changes to anything take time which is why there is discussion to ensure something of quality is delivered.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Gorgon » Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:43 pm

For clarification, when people say "robes", they aren't just wizard robes. Any clothing that uses the AC 0 torso fits in that category, from dresses, to sneak suits or even G-strings (there are even full nude things that are "clothing").

Just trying to avoid any Grunt vs. Mage comparisons here (No, not that Grunt!). :mrgreen:

*edits* And you can make some damn fine full plate "dresses" or chain mail bikini's too, so appearance really doesn't mean anything in this.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: jwhite5730 » Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:53 pm

Yea I understand it is a process and it will have to go through all the correct people to change. However I believe that is a fair alternative to allowing armor to have one base stat.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Xeo » Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:59 pm

krackq wrote:Just to keep in mind changes like this are not just simple, as its a whole process. It requires back end CCC discussion and approval.. pros..cons.. etc which is where some of the decisions like these are ironed out. Then someone that is knowledgeable with nwn coding has to make code changes.. which then have to be documented and submitted... then the changes have to be integrated and compiled into test modules and then upload them to QA server instances... then those in QA group can go in and test the changes per documentation to verify everything works as intended... if everything passes, then the changes have to be integrated and compiled into all 9 server modules.. then uploaded to all the servers. In a nutshell that's the super simplified version of a change to anything.. and that's if its straightforward and doesn't have any gotchas or other issues or failures along the way.. or stumble during discussions, etc. It requires a number of people to make a change. This is pretty much how anything gets pushed out live in Avlis. I'm not trying to be discouraging as this is what CCC and QA do to get things delivered but changes to anything take time which is why there is discussion to ensure something of quality is delivered.


1+
Silk wrote:I don't know, I think flinging poo in a catapult could be pretty damn effective.
I know if I was on the battlefield and I got hit by a pile of shit... I'd probably go home.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Xeo » Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:59 pm

krackq wrote:Just to keep in mind changes like this are not just simple, as its a whole process. It requires back end CCC discussion and approval.. pros..cons.. etc which is where some of the decisions like these are ironed out. Then someone that is knowledgeable with nwn coding has to make code changes.. which then have to be documented and submitted... then the changes have to be integrated and compiled into test modules and then upload them to QA server instances... then those in QA group can go in and test the changes per documentation to verify everything works as intended... if everything passes, then the changes have to be integrated and compiled into all 9 server modules.. then uploaded to all the servers. In a nutshell that's the super simplified version of a change to anything.. and that's if its straightforward and doesn't have any gotchas or other issues or failures along the way.. or stumble during discussions, etc. It requires a number of people to make a change. This is pretty much how anything gets pushed out live in Avlis. I'm not trying to be discouraging as this is what CCC and QA do to get things delivered but changes to anything take time which is why there is discussion to ensure something of quality is delivered.


1+
Silk wrote:I don't know, I think flinging poo in a catapult could be pretty damn effective.
I know if I was on the battlefield and I got hit by a pile of shit... I'd probably go home.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Jazz » Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:03 pm

That makes +2, Xeo.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Xeo » Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:26 pm

Jazz wrote:That makes +2, Xeo.


Smart ass
Silk wrote:I don't know, I think flinging poo in a catapult could be pretty damn effective.
I know if I was on the battlefield and I got hit by a pile of shit... I'd probably go home.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Micah » Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:42 pm

Gorgon's post is a good one. Krackq too. Most design decisions are not meant to be transparent, but their impact can still be discussed.

So... these features get coded, go through QA. They work as designed and get used by the players and over time the subtle impacts of design decisions bubble to the surface. Why is leather this and cloth that, for example, or why are XP cap returns on artificing? Other things include side-effects of older systems and older ways of playing/RPing that don't jive so well nowadays. From what I have read here, almost everything that is up for discussion is such a bubble reaching the surface.

As these are unexpected consequences of use, I'm totally interested in talking about them. I want to hear how they impact things, but moreover, I want to hear more ideas for how to improve them. Noting, again, that they are little bubbles in big systems and not slights against a person or craft. Some bubbles, like the desire for certain info to be available IC, are clear opportunities, others are more contested in their importance, and some are just people complaining. The ones that get sent back to CCC for discussion have to have merit - be it as a new idea, a tweak or a fix - and it is really hard to prove merit for any ideas when a thread derails from being constructive. Much of what has been said here is going to go the way of the horsolich just because of that. Or... we can get it back track.

Clock is ticking though. I really need somebody to take the lead on organizing some of this stuff, though.

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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: jwhite5730 » Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:46 pm

Micah wrote:Gorgon's post is a good one. Krackq too. Most design decisions are not meant to be transparent, but their impact can still be discussed.

So... these features get coded, go through QA. They work as designed and get used by the players and over time the subtle impacts of design decisions bubble to the surface. Why is leather this and cloth that, for example, or why are XP cap returns on artificing? Other things include side-effects of older systems and older ways of playing/RPing that don't jive so well nowadays. From what I have read here, almost everything that is up for discussion is such a bubble reaching the surface.

As these are unexpected consequences of use, I'm totally interested in talking about them. I want to hear how they impact things, but moreover, I want to hear more ideas for how to improve them. Noting, again, that they are little bubbles in big systems and not slights against a person or craft. Some bubbles, like the desire for certain info to be available IC, are clear opportunities, others are more contested in their importance, and some are just people complaining. The ones that get sent back to CCC for discussion have to have merit - be it as a new idea, a tweak or a fix - and it is really hard to prove merit for any ideas when a thread derails from being constructive. Much of what has been said here is going to go the way of the horsolich just because of that. Or... we can get it back track.

Clock is ticking though. I really need somebody to take the lead on organizing some of this stuff, though.

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jwhite5730 wrote:Yea I understand it is a process and it will have to go through all the correct people to change. However I believe that is a fair alternative to allowing armor to have one base stat.



That's my idea, I do not believe it will be unbalancing and it will help fighters out a bunch.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Zerub » Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:49 pm

jwhite5730 wrote:Yea I understand it is a process and it will have to go through all the correct people to change. However I believe that is a fair alternative to allowing armor to have one base stat.


I would rather see the Robes not have DI. That makes it where the Armorer's can make something that is not doable by Jewelry or Tailoring and thus making a better incentive for people to become Armorers.

After I think about that, what am I thinking! No! Don't do it. That means more competition for Zerub on making armor for people! :)

To add on to what Kassha said, I have never thought it was quite right that you can use gems on wands to extend, empower, etc if you cannot already do it yourself. If I recall correctly that is how it is done though. And as much as I like wands/scrolls I really wish they had a CL max of like 10 or so. Wands are probably the one most overpowering thing in the game. I am saying that and I use the fire out of them. Most things in CoPap go towards the idea of partying up so there is RP and people getting together. To me, the wands do just the opposite. Just my 2 cents.

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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Gorgon » Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:22 pm

Zerub wrote:I would rather see the Robes not have DI. That makes it where the Armorer's can make something that is not doable by Jewelry or Tailoring and thus making a better incentive for people to become Armorers.

This would mean anyone who can't wear armor is out of luck too.

Zerub wrote:To add on to what Kassha said, I have never thought it was quite right that you can use gems on wands to extend, empower, etc if you cannot already do it yourself.

As much as I like it with my non-extending ranger to be able to extend spells, I never understood why either. Someone else might be better at explaining that one.

Zerub wrote:Wands are probably the one most overpowering thing in the game.

That is a whole discussion topic in itself, since some people built PCs from the ground up around UMD/spellcraft use of them (and other things), or casters being able to use them as backup (or multi-feat) spell batteries on long romps. Not an easy thing to change without consequences, if a change is attempted. Making them cost even more XP or some other change to make them less common might help.
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