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Consistency in Crafting

General discussion about Avlis

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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: GrimlyAxefingler » Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:21 pm

Grunt wrote:Almost all DM drop ingredients can be obtained through the reprocessing or token systems. There are a couple of missing ones due to size/weight of the returned items in the token system, so it makes the value vs tokens spent tough to justify. Eventually there may be more ways to address it. Yeah they're rare, but none of us are entitled to making everything. If solo research can hit a wall due to ingredient scarcity, it's all the more reason to team up and share knowledge with IC friends and colleagues.


Right, but your proving the original point jwhite was making that its inaccesable to new crafters. You cant get tokens or recycle on every server, another thing that requires interaction, which is great. The answer to everything is to RP with others that know.

There is a difference between scarcity and absense. Spending hours attempting to research using a research system that doesn't let you know you'll never find an ingredient is frustrating, again pointing to the original point. Maybe the research system could include an option that lets you know when an item contains something your not likely to find. maybe a "You sense this recipe will require further instruction" when your close.

But in reality, I pick a recipe a few weeks more difficult then I'm ready for, and then spend a few weeks asking around so I'm set when the time comes. The only time i research is in class.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Ninjar » Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:30 pm

GrimlyAxefingler wrote:
Grunt wrote:Almost all DM drop ingredients can be obtained through the reprocessing or token systems. There are a couple of missing ones due to size/weight of the returned items in the token system, so it makes the value vs tokens spent tough to justify. Eventually there may be more ways to address it. Yeah they're rare, but none of us are entitled to making everything. If solo research can hit a wall due to ingredient scarcity, it's all the more reason to team up and share knowledge with IC friends and colleagues.


Right, but your proving the original point jwhite was making that its inaccesable to new crafters. You cant get tokens or recycle on every server, another thing that requires interaction, which is great. The answer to everything is to RP with others that know.

There is a difference between scarcity and absense. Spending hours attempting to research using a research system that doesn't let you know you'll never find an ingredient is frustrating, again pointing to the original point. Maybe the research system could include an option that lets you know when an item contains something your not likely to find. maybe a "You sense this recipe will require further instruction" when your close.

But in reality, I pick a recipe a few weeks more difficult then I'm ready for, and then spend a few weeks asking around so I'm set when the time comes. The only time i research is in class.


Frankly, a bit of frustration and toil to be able to craft the stuff that's possible these days seems pretty reasonable. Having said that, and not knowing anything about the crafting internals, given the age of the system I would be surprised if it is extensible to the degree that would make this a viably trivial feature to implement. Given the age of the system and the no doubt countless iterations over it through disparate volunteer teams throughout the years, I weep for anyone working on it. :P

Adding a recipe or tweaking xp seems like it is one thing, but a system that evaluates recipe arity and alerts you when you're close sounds non-trivial!
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Tel » Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:25 pm

I got called out for missing a few shops/players and putting one name in the wrong place!

Tel wrote:Active Shops/Players (if there is no contact listed I don't know if it's actively maintained and if so by who) if you're interested in crafting (myself first because-ME!)
  • Rockfall, contact Tel, 5 apprentices
  • Feather fingers - contact Zerub, 1 apprentice?
  • ACE - contact Mirkduil, 5 apprentices?
  • Squid's Inn - Ony, 2 apprentices?
  • ??? - Smeec's store(s) which have changed hands/names not sure which it is now or if it's active
  • AJA - contact Smeec (no seriously he talks all the time about how he needs someone to take this over responsibly)
  • Opportunity Knocks - Fletcher Milestone
  • Privater Enterprises - contact Drogridoc Shadowviper & Brant Risko
  • ROTE - contact Davilia Chert
  • Loash Leheven - Contact Nawen 0 apprentices
  • Paradise - Contact Nawen 0 apprentices
  • Sorben's Fine Threads - Contact Nawen 0 apprentices
  • Heal - contact Mhog'ar or Lillith DuCoin
  • AKN - contact ???
  • AAAA - contact Delurion?




Xeo wrote:There is a problem here as a handful of PC's that are high level crafters, sit outside the guilds. There really isn't IG/IC motivation or direction to push within those guilds anymore I believe.

Just to touch on this, there are 3 reasons to join a guild or jump on another PC-crafter's coat tails.
  • Ideally learning how to use research mode to teach yourself new recepies
  • Learning new recipes you couldn't figure out with research mode
  • Crafting Storage (remember that 27 inn room bit on page 1?)
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Gorgon » Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:49 pm

People have researched every recipe on their own, and back when we had way more DM drop only items. There are others to talk to if you are stumped, and DMs as well, if you want to RP researching or something. It can be done, and has. None of my research was guild aided, but done by working with a few other PCs with the same goals. *Misses Ed and the rest of the familly*

I know these days you can get most crafting questions answered by any good crafter, but back in the day it was a true thrill to go around experimenting and trying new things (yeah, I know I'm weird). Sometimes getting stumped was great too, because I got great satisfaction from finally figuring it out. Even talking to PCs with no crafting inclination at all sometimes helped, by giving a new perspective on it. Most recipes do follow some logic, and make sense, so it can be a funny head-desk moment when someone else just blurts out "well it looks like it is made of this, so did you try it?".

Other than ACE, or perhaps AKN members helping each other out, the big crafting guilds aren't the way to go these days for help IMO. As said, the current player totals don't support individual craft guilds very well, and seeing one of them restarted would take some dedicated effort, and more than a single person wanting it to happen.

IMO, the current crafting groups are the best choice (ROTE or the other classes), since they don't specialize in a single craft. They are better suited to the situation these days, not needing DM sponsorship, or a bunch of other things that are expected in a proper crafting guild (like more than a few regular members).

Finding someone to help you learn research mode is probably even better than getting help with each recipe, but you can learn it yourself. I'd suggest picking a recipe you already know, with more than a few (replaceable) ingredients, and experiment with it.

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It's been mentioned a few times how I've been looking for someone to take over the AJA. This is true, and the offer still stands. It does require a well thought out plan to do it though, and at least some investigation into finding other PCs (and a DM sponsor) who would take part in doing it. Like starting a new guild, there should be members helping, and a plan.

I've had a few people offer to take over, without any plan, who fled once they heard only some of what is involved in maintaining an active guild. Others only wanted to know how much gold the AJA had for them to work with, rather than investing any of their own, or from new members. Jewelry and gem crafting are still a really expensive crafts to learn, especially with the team not wanting the results sold to Bio-Merchants in bulk, though reselling new artificed items to other PCs may help that. Since the current AJA policy is to help its members learn and do more, all extra funds went back into our in-house merchants, for cheaper member supply deals (millions and millions... and millions of gold). Much of that from my own PCs pocket, not guild sales or funding, but the market was crazy for high end item profit making back then too (kinda is again with new stuff).
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: gutemensch » Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:57 pm

*wading in a player*

I have a freelance 'master' crafter with several crafts at max or near max level and she teaches. She just never hears anyone ask or the few times she heard another character ask then its one she wouldn't teacher for IG reasons. Granted she doesn't shout it out like she use to. She listens and hopes someone ask as they pass through. Ask about such at gathering spots, get hints and clues, and maybe even get a teaching crafters attention.

As Gorgon put it there a thrill to researching it with maybe a clue or two. I can remember spending nights for a week or two. Just going through chest using knowledge of other recipes to figure out a missing part. Then trading that information with another character working on a different recipe. Only to have third character stumble upon us and explain what they were working and before you know we have figured that out with them.

Think my head still sore from figuring out Keen. Would have had it over a year sooner if we tried the idea instead of laughing at it.

*Misses Ed and the rest of the family* +1 :cry:
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Grunt » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:07 pm

GrimlyAxefingler wrote:
Grunt wrote:Almost all DM drop ingredients can be obtained through the reprocessing or token systems. There are a couple of missing ones due to size/weight of the returned items in the token system, so it makes the value vs tokens spent tough to justify. Eventually there may be more ways to address it. Yeah they're rare, but none of us are entitled to making everything. If solo research can hit a wall due to ingredient scarcity, it's all the more reason to team up and share knowledge with IC friends and colleagues.


Right, but your proving the original point jwhite was making that its inaccesable to new crafters. You cant get tokens or recycle on every server, another thing that requires interaction, which is great. The answer to everything is to RP with others that know.

There is a difference between scarcity and absense. Spending hours attempting to research using a research system that doesn't let you know you'll never find an ingredient is frustrating, again pointing to the original point. Maybe the research system could include an option that lets you know when an item contains something your not likely to find. maybe a "You sense this recipe will require further instruction" when your close.

But in reality, I pick a recipe a few weeks more difficult then I'm ready for, and then spend a few weeks asking around so I'm set when the time comes. The only time i research is in class.


By the time someone gets to where they need these DM only drops, they're not a new crafter anymore. The first few levels are pretty easy, and set the stage for experimentation that continues on as you go up in levels. I know it doesn't mesh as well with today's instant gratifaction/Level 40 in under 6 months type of Avlis2k17, but at least it has a flow towards an endgame, instead of a speedrun to it.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: GrimlyAxefingler » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:31 pm

What?
So I'm not entitled to not waste my time on things that don't exist because it's good to be frustrated and you remember when it used to take longer?
Please explain how I'm not entitled to make half the things in my craft? or any craft for that matter?
How does one become entitled?
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Grunt » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:56 pm

GrimlyAxefingler wrote:What?
So I'm not entitled to not waste my time on things that don't exist because it's good to be frustrated and you remember when it used to take longer?

Your frustration is your own problem. Plenty of other people have managed to do the recipes, through experimentation and collaboration. It's good to have limits on how fast one can advance in things, and how often one can make powerful items in order to prevent a flood of them. You don't seem to grasp this, despite people saying it multiple times. I can't help you there.

Please explain how I'm not entitled to make half the things in my craft? or any craft for that matter?
How does one become entitled?

What I'm saying is...
Nobody is entitled to make everything.
Nobody is entitled to have a custom item made for them by a DM.
Nobody is entitled to have a personal plot run for them.
Nobody is entitled to have a custom spell coded for them.

Do these things happen? Yes, but it's not because everyone is supposed to get them. Some happen more than others, some happen to certain people more than others. That's Avlis. If figuring out the recipes, or working for the ingredients is too difficult or frustrating, perhaps step back, and try a slower and more relaxed goal-oriented approach. "DM Drop" ingredients used to be just that DM Drops. They were found to be pretty much ignored, or dropped only in certain circles. The token system was put in place to alleviate that, as was the reprocessing system, while also allowing crafted goods to be used for acquiring those tokens. The reprocessing drop amounts were raised, items were added to it, and other adjustments were made to it. Reprocessing is easy to get into, all you need is a little gold and a knack for killing things. It practically invites you into doing it.

I'd explain further, but you have access to CCC and QA. A search in the topics should likely have Nob's vision when implementing these, as well as tweaks made along the way to make it more accessible for people to use it.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: GrimlyAxefingler » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:49 pm

I don't see what speed of crafting has to do with anything, it does not. I am saying that I am doing everything that is possible RP wise and it works out great.

When I do want to research something, the fact that their are things, that i will have no way of knowing i could not possibly have, is not preferable to knowing the recipes that will contain things i wouldn't ordinarily have access to. (Like maybe a different colour)
I thought an appropriate response was "yeah that sucks".
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Zerub » Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:42 am

All I have to say is.....If in doubt.....come fine Zerub! :) He likes to help with crafting and as long as it is not a high level Alchemy recipe, he probably knows how to make it. That being said, this is my busiest time of year in RL so I may not be on a whole bunch, or for very long periods, but if you PM me IC, I'd probably be glad to log for a bit and help you out if I could.

There are things that we probably all like and dislike about crafting, but all in all, I have enjoyed it for nearly 13 years now. It is fun to find new recipes out by yourself, it is fun to be taught one by a DM, it is fun to find one out in a group or be taught one by a PC, I love it all.........well....other than collecting all the crap for it!! lol If it was super easy though, everyone would do it. :)

I like the new artifcing system. Few things I don't like about it, but all in all it was a good system of replacement for the old style crafts.

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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: silverfields2 » Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:07 am

<<Shamelessplug>>>

calendar.php?view=event&calEid=2083

-make sure you are logged in and have your time zone set correctly when you view this post
<<Shamelessplug>>
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Seka » Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:24 am

Grunt wrote:I know it doesn't mesh as well with today's instant gratifaction/Level 40 in under 6 months type of Avlis2k17, but at least it has a flow towards an endgame, instead of a speedrun to it.

This message brought to you by Grump, Avlis' ornery old grandpa, who remembers walking uphill both ways through the snow just to retrieve a single comfry*.

*Not to imply that comfry is in any way useful in recipes! But it does ease the swelling caused by painful corns.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: gutemensch » Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:26 am

*points up*

:lol: :lol:
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Micah » Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:51 pm

silverfields2 your click bait worked on me.

Repost!
silverfields2 wrote:<<Shamelessplug>>>

calendar.php?view=event&calEid=2083

-make sure you are logged in and have your time zone set correctly when you view this post
<<Shamelessplug>>


Click and become wise.

Also, we've started tossing around ideas for getting select crafting related information into game in IC ways. I do not normally bring up teamside discussions this early, but it is motivated by this thread so I thought I would share. No details nor promises, yet. Still listening if we can keep things on the path to constructive. :-) Does anybody want to try to pull some of these other ideas together in a freshly organized way? Pick out the top two or three, see if we can refocus a bit.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: rk57957 » Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:10 pm

Micah wrote:Also, we've started tossing around ideas for getting select crafting related information into game in IC ways. I do not normally bring up teamside discussions this early, but it is motivated by this thread so I thought I would share. No details nor promises, yet. Still listening if we can keep things on the path to constructive. :-) Does anybody want to try to pull some of these other ideas together in a freshly organized way? Pick out the top two or three, see if we can refocus a bit.


Well I can't talk about the other inferior crafts but there is a nice series of books out there that detail artificing; some more books detailing crafting wouldn't hurt. If books aren't your things how about an NPC that teaches basic crafting stuff. He tells you what to go out and get and you bring it back and he tells you what to do with it and you turn it in for some xp. I'm not sure how intensive it is to write that up.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: StarlightCargo » Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:29 pm

What about:

Master crafter NPCs, where you can deliver so and so many crafting reagents a week from a short list (like Maria Torin) and in return he teaches you a recipe that you can choose.

1 NPC for each tradeskill, spread out across the world. It would sort of mimic an apprenticeship. "Bring 50 glowing mold spores and I will teach you a level three recipe" it would limit the recipes on a weekly basis but you would still need to head out and gather stuff.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Deider » Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:00 pm

I suggested in the Player's Idea Box that the DM drop components become droppable, since even the best of the 1st & 2nd generation of crafted items are not as good as anything that players can artifice. (When I say "best" I mean not just power level, but also the ability to customize what you are creating.) I realize that's a lot of work to make changes to the mod, so as an alternative, how about increasing (perhaps even doubling) the amount of items that can be recycled per week? It's an easy change (I'm assuming a few lines of code, not knowing what the code looks like), and also has the added benefit of getting rid of more items, which is sort of an indirect gold sink.

As for spreading crafting knowledge, adding scripted quests and/or books is a good idea, but it'd be easier to just have DMs help out in spreading such knowledge, ICly of course. They could give hints or actual recipes as rewards during events, or maybe through PMs, if a PC is researching something and gets truly stumped.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: MusicOfLight » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:21 pm

StarlightCargo wrote:What about:

Master crafter NPCs, where you can deliver so and so many crafting reagents a week from a short list (like Maria Torin) and in return he teaches you a recipe that you can choose.

1 NPC for each tradeskill, spread out across the world. It would sort of mimic an apprenticeship. "Bring 50 glowing mold spores and I will teach you a level three recipe" it would limit the recipes on a weekly basis but you would still need to head out and gather stuff.


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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Micah » Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:02 pm

Just adding onto that (my words here are just bouncing ideas and do not reflect any official position) what about connecting them to token merchants? Good idea, bad idea?
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Grunt » Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:11 pm

Micah wrote:Just adding onto that (my words here are just bouncing ideas and do not reflect any official position) what about connecting them to token merchants? Good idea, bad idea?


One thing with the token merchants is they're the end game where you spend the tokens, and you get better purchase options by turning in the non-reprocessing hides and parts to them. One thing I'd like to throw out there, seeing as it's going into the proposal when I get to the token system, is that we don't limit crafters turning in items at half as many as non-crafters. In a more populated server, the current way would work, but the adoption rate is low, and the investment vs return is also low. It needs a rethink.

As for the Token Dropoff points, seeing as they only collect craftable goods, it would make sense to add something like that to them instead. "I only take crafted shit." "How do I craft shit?" "Here's how to craft this shit. If you want to craft more shit, bring me this other shit."

If you reaaaaaaallllllllllly wanted to get fancy, you could have them charge tokens to learn recipes. The recipes are in the database. We'd just need a table with a reference to the recipe id, and start filling in descriptions for a better IC lesson than a lame shopping list (I've seen those lessons). But, someone would need to come up with a bunch of lessons. Not it.

Seka wrote:
Grunt wrote:I know it doesn't mesh as well with today's instant gratifaction/Level 40 in under 6 months type of Avlis2k17, but at least it has a flow towards an endgame, instead of a speedrun to it.

This message brought to you by Grump, Avlis' ornery old grandpa, who remembers walking uphill both ways through the snow just to retrieve a single comfry*.

*Not to imply that comfry is in any way useful in recipes! But it does ease the swelling caused by painful corns.


Hey I'm not the only one who remembers when Avlis wasn't trying to be a Korean MMO! ;)
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: silverfields2 » Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:49 am

Grunt wrote:If you reaaaaaaallllllllllly wanted to get fancy, you could have them charge tokens to learn recipes. The recipes are in the database. We'd just need a table with a reference to the recipe id, and start filling in descriptions for a better IC lesson than a lame shopping list (I've seen those lessons). But, someone would need to come up with a bunch of lessons. Not it.


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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: jwhite5730 » Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:47 am

Ok I understand that plate you can not add characteristics to and only add DI but tell me how cloth gets DI That makes no sense what so ever to me....It should get a good deflection bonus but not DI or DR...That is wrong....It does not support the structure of armor and as such should not get such. Just my opinion and there are some major issues with that if it stands.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Grunt » Sun Aug 20, 2017 2:10 am

jwhite5730 wrote:Ok I understand that plate you can not add characteristics to and only add DI but tell me how cloth gets DI That makes no sense what so ever to me....It should get a good deflection bonus but not DI or DR...That is wrong....It does not support the structure of armor and as such should not get such. Just my opinion and there are some major issues with that if it stands.


Image

:D
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: jwhite5730 » Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:19 am

Grunt wrote:
jwhite5730 wrote:Ok I understand that plate you can not add characteristics to and only add DI but tell me how cloth gets DI That makes no sense what so ever to me....It should get a good deflection bonus but not DI or DR...That is wrong....It does not support the structure of armor and as such should not get such. Just my opinion and there are some major issues with that if it stands.


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its all magic...but I would have some basis in realism...cloth can not do DR or DI .... It should help those that dex and such bonus while those that do not have such should wear some sort of armor with DI or DR....It's a balance and it should be ...
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Grunt » Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:49 am

You cannot play the realism card here. You can't. It's cherry picking what you want realism in, while going out and slapping dragons with a sword. It's saying armor must be this or that, while strolling down a hill 5 minutes after your body hits the ground. It's being OK with some wine, 3 kinds of flowers, and a jar of pig shit being able to make you immune to magical spells for a few hours, but a magical kit being attached to a reinforced bathrobe is beyond the pale.

Also, without giving too much of anything away... The artificed Robes aren't just threads. So, yeah. There's that.
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