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Consistency in Crafting

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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: jwhite5730 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:51 am

I do understand all this but if you'r trying to figure out a new recipe first of all 1600 items wont fit in an avil and secondly anvils crash if you put over 10 pages in them. So in theory there really is not a way now for me to figure out a recipe because the amount of components the system uses is astronomical. So MR. or MiSS 5th level crafter trying to figure out a recipe is really screwed. Does this not take the fun out of explore the crafting system when you try everything you know....and it still does not work. I mean you can spend Hours trying different things and not accomplish a damn thing......I know I have done it. This is why I find crafting here so Inconsistent.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Grunt » Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:54 am

jwhite5730 wrote:Ok...I have an issue....I thought it was not a rule breaking thing to ask about crafting and if such is , why do we have a forum to discuss such....and 1600 different freaking way to make something is to much over head on the system.... :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:


You can discuss mechanics, and gathering techniques, for example: "I tend to keep all of my alchemical ingredients in one chest, and my blacksmithing in another, but there is some crossover in some ingredients." or "Instead of camping Ony's boat for pirate patches, I prefer to go to Monkey Island and slaughter pirates to gather them wholesale."

That might give a clue that pirate patches are useful somehow, but it doesn't mention that they're used to make "Isadora's Pirate Hating Bikini".

The rule is in regards to specific items used in specific recipes (see: your discussion of the helms). While the sentence was only slightly beyond the line, I was throwing up a yellow flag rather than a red as a reminder :)
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: jwhite5730 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:00 pm

Grunt wrote:
jwhite5730 wrote:Ok...I have an issue....I thought it was not a rule breaking thing to ask about crafting and if such is , why do we have a forum to discuss such....and 1600 different freaking way to make something is to much over head on the system.... :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:


You can discuss mechanics, and gathering techniques, for example: "I tend to keep all of my alchemical ingredients in one chest, and my blacksmithing in another, but there is some crossover in some ingredients." or "Instead of camping Ony's boat for pirate patches, I prefer to go to Monkey Island and slaughter pirates to gather them wholesale."

That might give a clue that pirate patches are useful somehow, but it doesn't mention that they're used to make "Isadora's Pirate Hating Bikini".

The rule is in regards to specific items used in specific recipes (see: your discussion of the helms). While the sentence was only slightly beyond the line, I was throwing up a yellow flag rather than a red as a reminder :)


That's perfectly fine and I understand now, just how do we discuss this in the future with out mentioning the crafting steps?
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Xeo » Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:31 pm

jwhite5730 wrote:I do understand all this but if you'r trying to figure out a new recipe first of all 1600 items wont fit in an avil and secondly anvils crash if you put over 10 pages in them. So in theory there really is not a way now for me to figure out a recipe because the amount of components the system uses is astronomical. So MR. or MiSS 5th level crafter trying to figure out a recipe is really screwed. Does this not take the fun out of explore the crafting system when you try everything you know....and it still does not work. I mean you can spend Hours trying different things and not accomplish a damn thing......I know I have done it. This is why I find crafting here so Inconsistent.


No one is screwed here.

If you are struggling to work a recipe out. Find out in game, there are guilds (some not active) and PCs that are will to help.

But also take this into consideration, that PC's who have worked hard may not want to share their knowledge with others and devaluing their skill as a trade.

I'm sorry but I don't agree with any of your points here.

It's part of what makes crafting, crafting... Frustration management. :D
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Deider » Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:58 pm

ACE has a weekly crafting class. ROTE was doing the same, and I assume it'll start up again sometime. As others have mentioned ACE is probably the most active crafting guild these days, and while they may specialize in carpentry, they work on the other tradeskills as well.

This is less of an answer to your question/complaint/request and more of a shameless plug for ACE :D

One point/suggestion: DMs give all kinds of rewards - "real" XP, crafting XP, PrC unlocks, phat loot, etc. I'm sure they'd be willing to reward PCs with info on a crafting recipe, if it makes IC sense to do so. Again, that doesn't resolve what you are seeing as a problem (and I'm sorry, but I don't share that view - the current system can be complicated and frustrating, but I like it that way), and is more of a shameless request to the DMs (*cough cough* teach Gram all the shuriken recipes *cough cough*).
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: jwhite5730 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:10 pm

I am not truly seeing this as an issue with the crafting here, it is more of a concern when you can not figure out a recipe and no one is on you can go to to help you with that. Or you play an odd Hour and no one else is online. My concern is that someone is going to get so frustrated with the whole system and not bother to do anything with it and that is a shame because it is cool to make stuff from scratch. Heck this wont stop Akren from making stuff....But I have heard comments from other people asking how can you just sit there and try all that stuff isn't that boring to you.... I have to admit that Both Tel and Xeo have done me right and helped me tremendously but they have there own stuff to do and can not be around all the time so I find my self guessing on things to do and have made some headway but just when I think I get a head sundly the recipe switches to something even more bizarre to try. Please do not take this as a Rant or hate it is not , Just trying to shed some light on being a PC and crafting is all...Besides this wont stop me from figuring it out. :D :D :D
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Zerub » Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:03 pm

Grunt wrote:- The best robes are not easy to make, by any means,)


No they are not compared to a lot of things, but compared to other 18th level armor they are. They should be just as hard to make as the same level armor. They are not even close. I had a player collect what he needed for those robes in under a week. Try doing that with any of the 18th level armors. You would be pressed to do it in a few months I would guess. The other thing is that since they are tailoring then they should be 15DR and not the 25% Immunity. You can also add the stats to the robes and you can't the armor.

Again, Zerub can make either of them so it really does not matter to him as far as that goes. It sure would have been more incentive for people to do armor though since Armor gets Helms/Armor and Tailoring gets Gloves, Robes, Cloaks, Boots and Belts.

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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Nob » Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:20 pm

Almost all of the artificing enabled crafted items and their ingredients follow a very consistent formula in terms of required ingredients and processes.

I understand that this can be confusing if you aren't aware of how the crafting system evolved over the years.

Basically - we had a system for the better part of 10 years that was focused on just producing non-artificed items of various stripes, and those items were given recipes that would reflect their eclectic nature.

After years of discussing updates (and the resignation of a bunch of staff members who were working on it), we figured it would be easier to start on the issue from scratch and go from a high-volume of finished items model of craftskill progression to one where you gain most of your bulk crafting xp crafting intermediate components for an item, then requiring only a handful (IIRC my goal was that you wouldn't need to make more than 7-8 items in each "slot count" category to advance.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: rk57957 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:33 pm

Nob wrote:Almost all of the artificing enabled crafted items and their ingredients follow a very consistent formula in terms of required ingredients and processes.


I'll give a shout out to this, Kassha was able to become a competent weapon smith for artficing enabled items by figuring out how to make one thing and then using that pattern to figure other things out. I like to think I can read Nob's mind but what what it really was, was a logical progression. Artificing is also like that.

The problem a lot of people going back and forth over is crafting grew organically and so what may not make sense today was perfectly logical 10 years ago.

Kind of back to why Helms can use Ioun Stones and armor can't. I think Grunt already touched upon it, helms were originally supposed to get DI but then you get people like Kassha slobbering all over that and you had to dial it back so helms sucked. To make up for helms not getting DI they are allowed to use Ioun Stones. As for the IG reason why, kassha is more than perfectly happy to give you a reason.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Commander Morgan » Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:51 pm

I'm sure you didn't mean to miss us out, Tel, but:

Active Shops/Players (if there is no contact listed I don't know if it's actively maintained and if so by who) if you're interested in crafting

    The Grand Halls of the Fiddlesticks, highly active. 3 apprentices.


jkwhite: Have Akren pop over some time, and chat with old Bivrip. He's self taught, and whilst he does not call himself a master (he's not conceited enough) can possibly help out. Most recipes can easily be worked out, with a little planning. If an old Goblin can do it simply, anyone can.

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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Xeo » Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:27 pm

Commander Morgan wrote:He's self taught, and whilst he does not call himself a master (he's not conceited enough)


Yeah but he trashes everyone else :D
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Gorgon » Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:10 pm

jwhite5730 wrote:I do understand all this but if you'r trying to figure out a new recipe first of all 1600 items wont fit in an avil and secondly anvils crash if you put over 10 pages in them. So in theory there really is not a way now for me to figure out a recipe because the amount of components the system uses is astronomical. So MR. or MiSS 5th level crafter trying to figure out a recipe is really screwed.

Research mode only requires a few things (often 2 or 3 items at most), once you figure out the feedback for it. The old days of tossing everything in a table, and seeing if you succeed, are gone (thankfully), and wouldn't work with the table limited to only checking the first 300 items it finds in it (the last 300 you add to it, not the order they appear inside it). :wink:

If you don't want to find classes IG, you can learn things that way (I did for all of it). Just pay attention to when the feedback changes, and it makes testing new recipes quite simple. Don't toss in bags and bags of stuff if you are using research mode for... research. It doesn't work that way, and can even consume ingredients as you get closer to getting it right.

TLDR: Research mode is about testing a single new ingredient, with only a small portion of the recipe ingredients you already know work. Not getting the whole recipe correct in the table.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Commander Morgan » Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:15 pm

Xeo wrote:
Commander Morgan wrote:He's self taught, and whilst he does not call himself a master (he's not conceited enough)


Yeah but he trashes everyone else :D


Yay! I knew I'd catch a fish!

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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: tizmo » Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:38 pm

jwhite5730 wrote:... so I find my self guessing on things to do and have made some headway but just when I think I get a head sundly the recipe switches to something even more bizarre to try.


If you are purely guessing, then is it possible that you or your PC don't fully understand research mode? Or maybe you our your PC do not have enough knowledge of the world, ingredients, crafting techniques, etc, so your PC is unable to deduce the missing ingredients in a recipe?

The recipe's are full of patterns. I will fully admit that my PC gets stuck on recipes sometimes and has to spend a lot of time on them. As an example, he spent the entire RL weekend trying to figure out a single item in higher level carpentry. Sometimes he just sticks at the research himself. Other times he will seek out guidance from someone that has experience making the item. And if he gets stuck on one item, he'll move onto another item before going for help That way, when he goes to seek guidance, he can have a list of recipes to discuss at one setting.

The ~point~ of doing research is using the PC's knowledge of the world, ingredients, crafts, etc to figure out how to make something new. If the act of doing research is not interesting/too tedious/too boring/etc to a player or PC, then there is the option to do as some crafters have done and just go to classes and get all of recipes directly from instruction.

A scientist/researcher generally takes pride in the art of research and discovery.

There is nothing wrong with a PC or player not liking/enjoying crafting, it's not intended for everyone.

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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Bane TooVall » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:09 am

A Few quick thoughts on this as a new-ish crafter:

Nob wrote:Almost all of the artificing enabled crafted items and their ingredients follow a very consistent formula in terms of required ingredients and processes.

I understand that this can be confusing if you aren't aware of how the crafting system evolved over the years.


Completely agree with Nob, the problem is knowing the consistent formula. What might seem obvious to one person is completely random and unrelated process wise to another. If this system has been years in the making and evolved, the processes should be obtained better through IG information (AKA Books). This is the case in a select books but it should be more and more obvious/obtainable.

Tel wrote:So to weigh my 2c in on the matter (I didn't learn from Grunt!)

On Time Investment for crafting
    The most space-intensive recipe i know, if broken down to base components is 23,842 squares (that's over 27 inn rooms btw). The amount of STUFF you need to make some of the better items is really high. That means you will need a lot of time (your own gathering it all, or others helping you). Don't think it's something you're going to master in a a month or two.
    There are a lot of things to learn not just about WHAT a recipe is, but about managing it all (and building your spreadsheet!)


A few thoughts here:
- As far as time/space management I think this is a really important discussion and probably the most needed change to the system. We like the fact that things are difficult to obtain for better stuff so markets dont flood ect, but I think there is an issue with the amount of material, gold, and time needed to complete these recipes.

I feel like, as a fledgling crafter, 90% of my playing time is gathering ingredients for crafting. The other 10% is getting gold for all the gold sinks. As a person and player, you have to dedicate so much RL time its almost ridiculous, and that's if you know the recipe and where to find it.

You are telling the new crafters: "Here, enter this world where all this cool stuff is made and gold is to be had, but work 10 times as hard for knowledge and ingredients, mapping because you dont know the ingediences, formulas, where to obtain them, have the gold, need to research, ect. Also, everyone worked hard to research these recipes so you have to as well (not true) and its not complicated, its a consistent formula (not 100% true) and there are PCs and Players willing to help you (to a point. you can find a lot of help to get you to level 6-10, but you wont find much help beyond that, save for a few PCs who are sometime fluctuate between hesitant and resistant to helping a PC who is going to take their business)"

I have seen more people b/c of the changes Avlis has made, including to xp, gold, and crafting, but less rp, less large group dungeoning that isnt DM driven, and less overall players interacting. It is like everyone today and their cell phones. I attribute it, either correctly or not, on the amount of time everyone is putting into crafting and it takes away from so much else.

silverfields2 wrote:Spreadsheets!

Is this a thing now? As an apprentice at the AKN, I was told never to use a spreadsheet. Cant put IC stuff OOC b/c it can be shared, copied, ect. Is this no longer a thing? Is there a rule change I am not aware of?

Final thought: I disagree with what JW initially is saying, but I can understand and sympathize with his frustrations.

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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Xeo » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:48 am

Commander Morgan wrote:
Xeo wrote:
Commander Morgan wrote:He's self taught, and whilst he does not call himself a master (he's not conceited enough)


Yeah but he trashes everyone else :D


Yay! I knew I'd catch a fish!


Hahaha! I knew you was fishing 8-)
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Jazz » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:12 am

Bane TooVall wrote:
silverfields2 wrote:Spreadsheets!

Is this a thing now? As an apprentice at the AKN, I was told never to use a spreadsheet. Cant put IC stuff OOC b/c it can be shared, copied, ect. Is this no longer a thing? Is there a rule change I am not aware of?


The rule is not to share this info OOC with someone: don't send them a email with your spreadsheet or even tell them via IRC (or IG Tell) what the ingredients are that make up a certain item. However you store your info is totally up to you. Kind of a hard rule to enforce anway.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: StarlightCargo » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:53 am

On a positive note: this thread has made me want to craft more for some reason :-)
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: jwhite5730 » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:29 am

StarlightCargo wrote:On a positive note: this thread has made me want to craft more for some reason :-)



Yea!! it is fun, just frustrating some times...but making something from nothing is blast!!
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: silverfields2 » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:22 pm

As a former AKN member, I was never told how I could or could not store my knowledge, I was just told that I had to share that knowledge in game and IC and for each PC I rolled up, I had to start over.

I like that it is time consuming and difficult for people to power craft their way through each craft.

For me, crafting is a means to an end and not an end in itself. I craft so I have a reason to interact with other people and to go places to get things. I also craft to give me a reason to log in and have something to do while waiting to see if anyone else logs in or somedays I want to log in, but I don't actually want to be with other PC's, sort of a IC and OoC meditation.

Avlis has always been a game that covered years not days, weeks or months. This has never been a place of instant gratification for me.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: GrimlyAxefingler » Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:42 pm

How is someone going to solo research a recipe with DM drop ingredients on an empty server?

Your not.

Maybe not an issue, but all the researching in the world isn't going to help.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Grunt » Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:34 pm

Almost all DM drop ingredients can be obtained through the reprocessing or token systems. There are a couple of missing ones due to size/weight of the returned items in the token system, so it makes the value vs tokens spent tough to justify. Eventually there may be more ways to address it. Yeah they're rare, but none of us are entitled to making everything. If solo research can hit a wall due to ingredient scarcity, it's all the more reason to team up and share knowledge with IC friends and colleagues.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Demonlady » Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:54 pm

Actually Tel, that's:

ROTE: contact Davilia Chert
HEAL: contact Mhog'ar or Lillith DuCoin


Reading this all with interest :)
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: tizmo » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:46 pm

One other important thing that I realized from reading this thread is the following:

All of these ~issues~ used to be handled by crafting guilds (AKN, ACE, AAAA, AJA, etc..).

Crafting guilds generally teach:
  • how to use research mode
  • where to find ingredients
  • the properties of ingredients
  • the patterns of recipes
  • how different ingredients add certain properties to the crafted item
  • techniques for making each type of item
  • techniques for using different pieces of equipment
  • cooperatively researching recipes that are newly discovered

Since the crafting guilds are lacking, now PCs are trying to do all of this solo. So, the above list of knowledge has to be learned by either finding someone that will teach some/all of it, OR personal experimentation, OR trying to attend the small number of ad-hoc crafting gatherings (OR ACE's weekly gathering).

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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Xeo » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:28 pm

tizmo wrote:One other important thing that I realized from reading this thread is the following:

All of these ~issues~ used to be handled by crafting guilds (AKN, ACE, AAAA, AJA, etc..).

Crafting guilds generally teach:
  • how to use research mode
  • where to find ingredients
  • the properties of ingredients
  • the patterns of recipes
  • how different ingredients add certain properties to the crafted item
  • techniques for making each type of item
  • techniques for using different pieces of equipment
  • cooperatively researching recipes that are newly discovered

Since the crafting guilds are lacking, now PCs are trying to do all of this solo. So, the above list of knowledge has to be learned by either finding someone that will teach some/all of it, OR personal experimentation, OR trying to attend the small number of ad-hoc crafting gatherings (OR ACE's weekly gathering).


I've tried to kick start the AJA but I wasn't successful. Some of those guilds you have mentioned are Player Set Up Guilds (don't quote me which ones).

There is a problem here as a handful of PC's that are high level crafters, sit outside the guilds. There really isn't IG/IC motivation or direction to push within those guilds anymore I believe. I belong to the AAAA and tried to get some recipe help a few months back on some darts and shurikens. I didn't get a response (that's not a moan btw) and I couldn't even tell you in is actually Guild Leader of the AAAA at the minute.

The AAAA is a prime example of a inactive guild but with a lot of guild housing spread across the servers not doing anything, the AJA too and I'm sure the AKN. As you said ACE is really the only active guild and they don't have the new 'Avlis crafting system' in but they seem to be the most active. Is this because of a regular DM event being held once a week?... Maybe.

I would of thought the AJA and AAAA would be all over the new crafting system but it appears they are not I believe. Why? Well I think it's down to the population size of the community for one and like the rest of the guilds they suffer from numbers.

There is another thing too we are forgetting... "Competition". Why would a PC teach and train up another 10 people all to sell the same craft? There is very little customers or market size on Avlis at the moment. Also Avlis does have an live economy of sorts and if everyone was able to craft the highest armour, boots, ring or blade, then there would be no trade, coin movement and no market. So there is no obligation that a PC with time invested in perfecting their craft have to share to teach anyone that knowledge.

I've noticed that there are plenty of materials sitting in chests doing nothing. Small Gems is a prime example, I know there are used for a few recipes in a few things but the amount of small gems there are, the stock just grows and grows and grows. There are really to my knowledge, no real use for them to make either a useful item or turned into gold. If they were given a use, then the small gems would add value in the market and the wheels of commence begin to spin again for small gems.

Grunt wrote:Almost all DM drop ingredients can be obtained through the reprocessing or token systems. There are a couple of missing ones due to size/weight of the returned items in the token system, so it makes the value vs tokens spent tough to justify. Eventually there may be more ways to address it. Yeah they're rare, but none of us are entitled to making everything. If solo research can hit a wall due to ingredient scarcity, it's all the more reason to team up and share knowledge with IC friends and colleagues.


That's spot on.

Wrymskins though seem to be an issue. I don't know of or think there is a animal/monster with a high enough CR rating to drop a Huge/Large/Intact Hide. I know that's FOIG but I've not seen one and I've only seen one your P-Merchant. If there is, I might be hunting in the wrong places. :D

silverfields2 wrote:For me, crafting is a means to an end and not an end in itself. I craft so I have a reason to interact with other people and to go places to get things. I also craft to give me a reason to log in and have something to do while waiting to see if anyone else logs in or somedays I want to log in, but I don't actually want to be with other PC's, sort of a IC and OoC meditation.

Avlis has always been a game that covered years not days, weeks or months. This has never been a place of instant gratification for me.


100% Agree, it's most of the reasons why I craft. I love my downtime at the end of the day on Avlis, chilling in my cave or interacting with other PCs, I love trading and I love making things.
Silk wrote:I don't know, I think flinging poo in a catapult could be pretty damn effective.
I know if I was on the battlefield and I got hit by a pile of shit... I'd probably go home.
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