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Consistency in Crafting

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Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: jwhite5730 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:47 am

I think this server has a huge boost to its crafting and having crafters of all time.....However I believe a little consistency could go a long way to help people who do not understand why you can make Helms with Ion stones and you can not with armor.....The steel is not different, but the effect is....I mean can we have some sort of consistent tool to craft items....I know this sounds like I am bitching but sometimes I do not get why crafting is so complex that it works in one form on one thing and completely freaking different on another.....It makes no sense to me... :feuer: :feuer: :feuer: :feuer: :feuer:
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Angel of Death » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:52 am

Talk to more experienced crafters like i told you yesterday, they can explain which type of enchantments can be put on which kind of items.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: jwhite5730 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:59 am

I do understand this and I appreciated your input but I do not understand why you can craft ION stones into helms and not into Armor?
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Commander Morgan » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:09 am

Whilst I agree with both of the above, the thing that bewilders me the most is the differences in Crafting Artificed Items and something I am always asked in the Fiddlestick Crafting Sessions we run regarding xp burn (which I am in favour of btw) is:
* Wands get 50% cap back
* Everything else Does Not

The closest thing I've had as a Non Affiliated To The Team Response was "because Mages", which, whilst humourous is vaguely unsatisfying when trying to explain to others.

I'd relish any ig explanation I could give.

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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: StarlightCargo » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:45 am

Avlis is a little bit wand-crazy.. I've suddenly invested points in UMD because of it. The comments have been that it's the number one skill and that I'm crazy not to. "But it's +1 to CL for every 5 ranks?". They are fun but with so many wizards around to party up with I'm not sure they're needed.

As for crafting recipes I think it's a matter of some old vs new. I had a few very old recipes that still work and then you have items that would seem to be made in a similar fashion but are totally not. When thinking about this it's also the matter of how much work it would be to change crafting reagents, recipes, spawns etc. It's a non-sensical system at times but it works in a fashion.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Ninjar » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:13 am

StarlightCargo wrote:Avlis is a little bit wand-crazy.. I've suddenly invested points in UMD because of it. The comments have been that it's the number one skill and that I'm crazy not to. "But it's +1 to CL for every 5 ranks?". They are fun but with so many wizards around to party up with I'm not sure they're needed.

As for crafting recipes I think it's a matter of some old vs new. I had a few very old recipes that still work and then you have items that would seem to be made in a similar fashion but are totally not. When thinking about this it's also the matter of how much work it would be to change crafting reagents, recipes, spawns etc. It's a non-sensical system at times but it works in a fashion.

The +1 CL/5 ranks only applies to ranks you take at level up, and only to charged/per day items that aren't artificed.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Xeo » Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:04 pm

Commander Morgan wrote:Whilst I agree with both of the above, the thing that bewilders me the most is the differences in Crafting Artificed Items and something I am always asked in the Fiddlestick Crafting Sessions we run regarding xp burn (which I am in favour of btw) is:
* Wands get 50% cap back
* Everything else Does Not

The closest thing I've had as a Non Affiliated To The Team Response was "because Mages", which, whilst humourous is vaguely unsatisfying when trying to explain to others.

I'd relish any ig explanation I could give.


As I understand it, wands are consumables items. So exp return I believe is a credit system. How to explain that? Well like anything OOC being explain IG takes imagination and creativity. We don't really say STATS in game like DEX or STR but instead RUNES or Bulls, Cats etc etc.

So this XP return can be explained IG as favour being returned by the choosen Diety. A kind of thank you, for spreading the word of you God or in Andrinor case, just tapping into the Vortex like a currency.

Wands = Consumables like potions.
items = Permanent XP needed to set into am item.

Since the new crafting system has been introduced there was been a huge positive impact on Avlis and since then there has been adjustment and improvements.

Grunt and others have spent time addressing some of them. Recycling drop types, critical roll failures destroying the item and I am sure some more will be addressed in the future. As for the IG explanation, like have been done in the past... Players being creative and tend to set the trend or culture IG to explain OOC subjects and terms.


My comments are my comments and not an official team response. :D
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: StarlightCargo » Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:37 pm

Ninjar wrote:The +1 CL/5 ranks only applies to ranks you take at level up, and only to charged/per day items that aren't artificed.


Ah, well. UMD is happenin now!

I've already made a fool of myself after I found a Superior Wand of Cloud of Bewilderment by Sammuel Valorian in the freebie chest at the faire..
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Ninjar » Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:42 pm

Regarding equipment, with different item types allowing some properties and not others through the artificing kits. I believe this is primarily the case as an attempt to balance some of the properties that one might add to items (25% damage immunity for instance).
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: GrimlyAxefingler » Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:46 pm

I think the crafting system is massive (and awesome).
So massive that it is impossible for one person to make all the necessary updates and tweaks. I would recommend writing up your proposed changes and submitting them to the team as a reference for upcoming crafting tweaks. Like why ion stones should be included, how many, which ones, on which equipment, for which effects, possible recipes and item values.

One thing i often complain about is how complicated crafting is to understand through RP when you don't understand the mechanics, but I would hate to lose the sense of wonder and massiveness at having everything as intricate as it is now. I think this would be lost if everything was the same.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: jwhite5730 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:40 pm

My only concern is that it makes newer players not want to get into crafting....so much you have to go through to get to a decent crafting level it is putting off newer players and as such since consistency is not really built into the system, you need massive data sheets to understand how to craft an item. I know this for a fact because I have a massive spread sheet of parts and what they make. Now why can we not simply this to a set of standards and make it make sense to the crafter. I mean me as a Player I have already crafted items in any game setting I have been in but this is like writing down chaos....because it changes from Helm, to armor, to chain....etc... I just think common sense in crafting is better way to go ....Now this is my opinion and I am not trying to change the system but it is frustrating trying to figure out a recipe when you do not know where to start?? :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: BeyondInfinity » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:21 pm

jwhite5730 wrote:My only concern is that it makes newer players not want to get into crafting....so much you have to go through to get to a decent crafting level it is putting off newer players and as such since consistency is not really built into the system, you need massive data sheets to understand how to craft an item. I know this for a fact because I have a massive spread sheet of parts and what they make. Now why can we not simply this to a set of standards and make it make sense to the crafter. I mean me as a Player I have already crafted items in any game setting I have been in but this is like writing down chaos....because it changes from Helm, to armor, to chain....etc... I just think common sense in crafting is better way to go ....Now this is my opinion and I am not trying to change the system but it is frustrating trying to figure out a recipe when you do not know where to start?? :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


Relax.. and take a deep breath...

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: I think you're the one in chaos.... :flucht:

For what I know, Artifice armory, cloak, jewelry and boots are fairly new system, it is still bound to have issue. unless there is an IG explanation.

and I think the Armor is just a special case, it will not accept lucky runes (saves), ability runes and damage reduction, instead it accept damage immunity.. which is cool. as for skill runes, I have not tried it yet.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: GrimlyAxefingler » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:44 pm

jwhite5730 wrote:you need massive data sheets to understand how to craft an item. I know this for a fact because I have a massive spread sheet of parts and what they make.


For me this is a Rave not a complaint.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Zerub » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:26 pm

Ninjar wrote:Regarding equipment, with different item types allowing some properties and not others through the artificing kits. I believe this is primarily the case as an attempt to balance some of the properties that one might add to items (25% damage immunity for instance).


Yes, the 25% was really good for armor since a lot of other kits cannot be put on there. The problem is that from all the armor that I have been asked to make, about 9 out of 10 want AC 0 armor which was given to the tailoring craft. The other problem is that the AC 0 Armor is ridiculously easy to collect the ingredients for, it can have all the other properties on it too which makes it better than all the other armor crafts. I guess that is good for mages since that is the primary armor they will use, but it makes it tough on others that like to wear full plate though, but from all the order that I have had, it looks to be a lot more wanting the AC 0 vs the AC 8. :(

I really wish the AC 0 Armor had been given to the armoring craft. It would have helped that craft out some for sure.

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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: jwhite5730 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:48 pm

GrimlyAxefingler wrote:
jwhite5730 wrote:you need massive data sheets to understand how to craft an item. I know this for a fact because I have a massive spread sheet of parts and what they make.


For me this is a Rave not a complaint.


Dont get me wrong that is not a complaint Grimly....I would just like something that would be consistent....
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Xeo » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:04 pm

A lot of the crafting system is consistent.

We are talking about technical tweaks here and there. With time and resources I am confident that they will be looked at.

jwhite5730 wrote:
GrimlyAxefingler wrote:
jwhite5730 wrote:you need massive data sheets to understand how to craft an item. I know this for a fact because I have a massive spread sheet of parts and what they make.


For me this is a Rave not a complaint.


Agreed, I love my Spreadsheets! :liebhab:
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: silverfields2 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:31 pm

Spreadsheets!
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For if I drank, the toast should be
To blighted fortune health and fame.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: StarlightCargo » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:49 pm

Zerub wrote:
Ninjar wrote:Regarding equipment, with different item types allowing some properties and not others through the artificing kits. I believe this is primarily the case as an attempt to balance some of the properties that one might add to items (25% damage immunity for instance).


Yes, the 25% was really good for armor since a lot of other kits cannot be put on there. The problem is that from all the armor that I have been asked to make, about 9 out of 10 want AC 0 armor which was given to the tailoring craft. The other problem is that the AC 0 Armor is ridiculously easy to collect the ingredients for, it can have all the other properties on it too which makes it better than all the other armor crafts. I guess that is good for mages since that is the primary armor they will use, but it makes it tough on others that like to wear full plate though, but from all the order that I have had, it looks to be a lot more wanting the AC 0 vs the AC 8. :(

I really wish the AC 0 Armor had been given to the armoring craft. It would have helped that craft out some for sure.

Scott


Personally I think clothing shouldn't have + to AC or DR. It's not armor. I wish there was more love for light and medium armor.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Micah » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:19 pm

Just letting you guys know I'm following this. I don't know a great deal about crafting, but I expect that other folks who do will weigh in yet. So please, keep adding thoughts and we can bounce them around some.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: jwhite5730 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:39 pm

Micah wrote:Just letting you guys know I'm following this. I don't know a great deal about crafting, but I expect that other folks who do will weigh in yet. So please, keep adding thoughts and we can bounce them around some.


Sounds great..I just wanted to discuss this so the community can benefit from the older craftspeople as well as new ones.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: jwhite5730 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:39 pm

Micah wrote:Just letting you guys know I'm following this. I don't know a great deal about crafting, but I expect that other folks who do will weigh in yet. So please, keep adding thoughts and we can bounce them around some.


Sounds great..I just wanted to discuss this so the community can benefit from the older craftspeople as well as new ones.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Grunt » Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:36 am

OK, let me try to run through this.

jwhite:

- First off: I'll ask that you please not step into posting OOCly about crafting/artificing recipes. Your post on the helms steps a bit over the line, as how to do things with the helms, which is a "Find Out In Game" mechanic.
- The reason that you can do that with helms but not armor is because helms originally had the 5/15/25% immunity that armor has. It was taken away as a balance issue. Helms sucked, there was no point to wasting the materials to make them. The new change to the helms makes them viable as an item worth making for others.
- The complexity is in the artificing for a reason, in fact, artificing is much easier than what was proposed and approved. Why? Because of the double XP, cookies not counting towards the XP cap, the extremely generous DM cookie amounts, and the proliferation of easy to get gold and materials. Some of it is just an old world getting older, and unlimited storage being what it is. But, crafting is much easier than it used to be. Ask anyone who had to have 10 chests back when they were 25 page p-chests, instead of the unlimited storage 100+ page monstrosities that exist today.
- Skills on items? What where when? :twisted: ...they can go on any of the body slots, other than monk gloves (as opposed to bracers) and weapons, if I recall.
- Newer players and crafting: The world doesn't need more crafters, according to Ang. For real, people who want to try crafting can do so, and if it's not for them, it's not for them. The intricacy and time/ingredient sink of a craft is a balance for the pretty fucking awesome stuff that can be made. I repeat... the stuff is pretty fucking awesome. DMs didn't drop anything near as good at the end of a long runnig plot back in the day. Now, we can make stuff that is (third time's the charm) pretty fucking awesome.
- There is the research mode when you're trying to figure stuff out, if you like going it alone. There are ACE and the 4A if you're into the guild thing (and the AKN sort of exists still, I guess, for alchemy). There are people who give crafting lessons (advertised) and who will take on people to learn recipes, or just teach the occasional one to get people started.
- Embrace the spreadsheet method. There are over 1600 active recipes, not including the artificing kits, wands, and ioun stones. The artificing kits just had 24 skill kit recipes added to them. There's a ton of stuff to keep track of, even if you only touch one craft. Well, except mining, but who does that? :roll:

BeyondInfinity:
- Armor is kind of a special case, yes. Allowing everything on everything is actual chaos, despite looking simplified. 25% *2 types means it would be easy to get 100% immunity to all 3 damage types, for example, if we allowed it even on just body armor, helms, bracers, boots, cloaks and belts.

C. Morgan:
- Xeo touched on the wands vs other items with regards to the cap, but aside from the consumable vs. permanancy of the artificing in question, any other reason is not in my field of vision.
- "because Mages" forgot "all of the other caster types", but it's an old argument. On the plus side, how about that later level crafting XP payout on those base items huh? I'd take that over real XP payback any day. See: DM cookies and such mentioned above.

Xeo:
- More will be addressed, I'm sure. There's a couple of things in the pipeline, and crafting balance/tweaks do get pitched around.
- I like spreadsheets too. Tabs, colored rows, calculations... hooo baby.

Grimly:
- The IC teaching can take some effort beyond "here mix this stuff together", but trying to get real-world close in the description of the process can be fun. I picked up the method from people like Hortis, Bell, and Gurky back in the AKN days. If it feels like it might not make 100% sense, just remember you're in a world where people talk about how many times they died last weekend.
- Please watch the mentioning of FOIG ingredients OOCly, same as jwhite. Thanks!

Ninjar:
- Helms vs armor etc. is all done in the name of balance, yes. Also, everyone should be running around with their face concealed. Muffled voice optional.

Zerub:
- You've harped on the Robes being tailoring for months now. It shouldn't change, or we should add all of the robes and clothing to armor. It's not just that if they're AC 0, they're armor-ready robes. AC 0 means that they're clothing. Even Princess Priscilla's Party Dress, unenchanted, is AC 0. Good luck trying to hammer out a pair of silk pajamas on an anvil. No ironing jokes.
- Conveniently in the mage complaint, you're leaving out druids, monks, rogues and flavors of them. Mages aren't the only ones who wear AC 0 items.
- In the interest of "why is this here", why would there be 2 shield recipes in armorcrafting when all of the other shields are in Carpentry? At least in the robes being in tailoring, we already had what, 24 robe recipes before the artificing robes went in?
- I've done what I can in the interest of making harder to get armor ingredients out into the world in a sane way. It's not finished, likely, as there is more in the pipeline to bring into the world, but it should be known that the best stuff was never intended to be made in huge quantities. The fact that the best stuff is being made even at the rate it is now is a testament to longtime ingredient gathering, characters with more XP thanks to being a decade old, the aforementioned easy XP avenues, accumulated wealth of all types (not just crazy amounts of gold), and so on. The crafting was on hold for years, during which people collected a lot of the ingredients that were needed for it.
- As an example of the balance, let's say we made something like potions of fire really really easy to get. That might help people who want to use potions of fire for something, but it will also kill the market for them. Potions of fire are a great low level item to get a hold of and sell to player owned merchants. So, some sensitivity to that particular market needs to be considered.
- The best robes are not easy to make, by any means, if you're not already well established with a well established amount of gold to buy the ingredients. The goldsink costs alone, at the best NWN merchant with the best appraise still tops 1 million gold. Many crafters didn't have that kind of scratch to toss around at will when the system was proposed. Some do, some have 50-100 times that, some will get there, some won't. Some crafters can only afford to make a really nice item and hope it sells, if only to get their money back for the next run. It's why the ruined slot on failure was removed. That was a pain point that really stung everybody who tried artificing, as you know all too well.
- For the other stuff needed, do people camp the ingredient sources? I don't know. People have always camped ingredients, or gone offworld to make gold, or to grind XP, or hit up the same dungeons over and over. That's a computer RPG, these days, I guess. It is what it is, and the world keeps spinning. :)
- I auctioned some +4 plate that I made, and got a really nice price for it. YMMV. I think the demand for armor is there, but also you're competing with DM drops and DM auctions. That's its own thread.
- Part of boosting the helms (aside from making them not suck) was to give armorcrafting a slot all to itself. Hoods are made from the helms by changing the appearance in the sewing machines, and tailoring doesn't have artificed hoods. Could I have added those? Sure, it's really easy, and I could have whipped up a hood version of all of the robes. But, keeping it as helms does help armorcrafting. Decisions also don't happen in a vacuum. There are crafters and crafting naysayers in CCC, and there is quite a bit of back and forth when a proposal is brought in.

StarlightCargo:
- There have been tons of +AC clothing items since NWN itself first came out. The Shining Hand robes (craftable on Avlis since forever) have +1 +2 and +3 varieties. By your logic gloves, boots, and belts shouldn't have any armor properties to them either. They're just clothing. It's a weak argument in a magical world.
- For love for other armors, see an armorer who can make you Leather or Chain Shirt classes of artificed items. They're magically delicious. *looks up* There might be one or four in this thread!

Micah:
- Want to learn how to craft Glowmoss Distillate? Healing Kits? Fey Wine?

Grunt:
- Don't wade into crafting discussions. Therein lies madness.
- OK, I won't.
- Sorry, I just posted something. Whoops.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Sarmanos » Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:29 am

On joining crafting guilds - this actually isn't a great way to learn crafts anymore it seems. ACE apparently is doing fine going by the weekly gatherings, but the amount of members in the 4A by all appearances (I could be wrong on this) has dwindled to a point where it would be a struggle for a new PC to find one of the member PCs to have time to teach them, and as for the AKN? There are people in it, but for all intents and purposes, it is now a dead guild with no active leadership and activity. I am guessing AJA is in a similar state to the 4A. Can learning this way make a comeback? Of course. However, some of these guilds will need to greatly change they operate and govern themselves to be useful again to attract members in the current climate and get current members to participate again.
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: jwhite5730 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:56 am

Ok...I have an issue....I thought it was not a rule breaking thing to ask about crafting and if such is , why do we have a forum to discuss such....and 1600 different freaking way to make something is to much over head on the system.... :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
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Re: Consistency in Crafting

PostAuthor: Tel » Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:47 am

So to weigh my 2c in on the matter (I didn't learn from Grunt!)

On Time Investment for crafting
    The most space-intensive recipe i know, if broken down to base components is 23,842 squares (that's over 27 inn rooms btw). The amount of STUFF you need to make some of the better items is really high. That means you will need a lot of time (your own gathering it all, or others helping you). Don't think it's something you're going to master in a a month or two.
    There are a lot of things to learn not just about WHAT a recipe is, but about managing it all (and building your spreadsheet!)

On Consistency
  • Artificing is THE simplest craft to teach yourself
  • Artificed Equipment has set patterns you can learn to help you understand how it is ALL made
  • Enchanted items have such a HUGE range, explaining how that works (as it's been said) takes time and while it makes sense when you get it... it is a big system that you have to take in as a whole.

    I get that some things are different because of balance, and there are growing pains with figuring that out as a crafter. Take a step back and don't rush through it and we will help both IG/IC and with some of the more detailed systems with some OOC follow-up. We even try to teach our buyers how things work (I'm looking at you squid's inn buyer's guide). It's a BIG system and if you don't take it in on-the-whole you'll end up with issues like when helms rolled out (or battle bands.... I've heard stories of how things had to change because there's no putting the rabbit back in the hat!)




On LEARNING new recipes
  • Every time you ask someone how to make something, remember the first person to learn how did not have anyone to teach them. There are systems in place that many would be happy to teach you to help you learn things that are "forgotten" or NEW

    That disclaimer out of the way,
    "Guilds" are much different today than they used to be. AAAA was a power-house, now it (feels like) an empty house. The biggest known crafters might be a part of the guild, but they aren't big BECAUSE of the guild. Try to reach out to a character and not an "organization". This also means you don't need to be a part of 3, 4, 7 different "guilds" to learn the 1 thing they specialize in.
    The only "active" crafting "guild" I know of is ACE. Active shops/players is a bit of a different story.

Active Shops/Players (if there is no contact listed I don't know if it's actively maintained and if so by who) if you're interested in crafting (myself first because-ME!)
  • Rockfall, contact Tel, 5 apprentices
  • Feather fingers - contact Zerub, 1 apprentice?
  • ACE - contact Mirkduil, 5 apprentices?
  • Squid's Inn - Ony, 2 apprentices?
  • ??? - Smeec's store(s) which have changed hands/names not sure which it is now or if it's active
  • AJA - contact Smeec (no seriously he talks all the time about how he needs someone to take this over responsibly)
  • Opportunity Knocks - Fletcher Milestone
  • Privater Enterprises - contact Drogridoc Shadowviper & Brant Risko
  • ROTE - contact Mho'gar
  • Heal - contact ???
  • AKN - contact ???
  • AAAA - contact Delurion?
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Tel
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