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The Death of the Rogue

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The Death of the Rogue

PostAuthor: Trigger » Fri Apr 29, 2016 4:18 pm

Hey guys,

I have a favour to ask, over the years I have been playing Avlis, I have come across a problem that seems to endlessly repeat itself, and during a recent discussion with another player, I realised that maybe people didn't know they were doing it, or hadn't given it much thought. The problem is the lack of a need for a rogue, by rogue I mean a trap-monkey, the walking key-chain, the trap-disabling, lock-popping powerhouse that we all know and love.

The main problem, as I see it, is as follows. Some people have a metric ton of hit points, some have spells capable of negating all but the most viscous of blows, some are just blind and didn't mean to! But people walk through traps... it's annoying. If there's a rogue in your party, they probably want to deal with the traps, it's a skill that very few classes can deal with at low levels, and only rogues can deal with at high levels, but, people just plough on through and the poor rogue, who has spent the last 30-odd levels putting points into rogue skills is left wiggling his or her hand at the floor for no reason, similarly with locked doors. But with locked doors you are potentially ruining a dungeon for the next group to come through, don't destroy chests either on that note. And yes, sometimes I know the fireball says otherwise...

In short, take a moment to consider your party members and even those that are to follow you through the dungeon, remember that they want to have fun playing their character too, and a room full of broken chests is no fun for anybody!

Thank you for reading!
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Re: The Death of the Rogue

PostAuthor: Ronan » Fri Apr 29, 2016 4:21 pm

:shock: People always let me step in and deal with the traps, from my experience (and the few that don't, I just let them take allll the damage and snicker.)
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Re: The Death of the Rogue

PostAuthor: Kandi_Nulein » Fri Apr 29, 2016 4:22 pm

My first PC is an assassin with all the skills you mention and it is so very annoying when that happens!
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Re: The Death of the Rogue

PostAuthor: SaraEF » Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:18 pm

where's mod?
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Re: The Death of the Rogue

PostAuthor: Coco » Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:58 pm

I usually don't break anything - I use my pixie to do the traps and such. However, I do see it can be annoying for someone if traps are just being ignored or bashed in a party - especially if the person is a skilled rouge who can do something about it. I have actually not been giving it a lot of thought, so I'll try to pay attention if I'm in a party with a skilled rouge. My pixie Rosie will just be happy to be able to relax, while someone else do the dangerous job :-).

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Re: The Death of the Rogue

PostAuthor: silverfields2 » Fri Apr 29, 2016 6:54 pm

I think a lot of chests that get bashed are set to not drop loot. I am frequently in parties that wish we had a lock picker and trap finder.
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Re: The Death of the Rogue

PostAuthor: Xeo » Fri Apr 29, 2016 7:23 pm

In general the traps I don't think are challenging enough, some Dungeons yes but over all not really.

I do like this post by the way.
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Re: The Death of the Rogue

PostAuthor: Seka » Fri Apr 29, 2016 7:33 pm

Years ago I wrote some scripts for 'breakable loot' to address (one aspect of) this problem. Whenever a container was bashed, or damaged in any way, there was a chance that the items in the container would break. The chance of breakage varied by item type (potions and jewelry would break easily; armor wouldn't). If something broke, you couldn't even tell what it was originally. After discovering a few of these broken items, you started to think, 'Y'know, I could really use a thief!'

I called it the Fragile Contents system. Maybe it's time to dust off that code.
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Re: The Death of the Rogue

PostAuthor: GunnJ » Fri Apr 29, 2016 7:39 pm

What I've run into more and more is the rogue/ranger who has no picklock or trapping skill points having put lots of points into sneak and hide, so the group looks to the Rogue and the Rogue blinks back.

As the player base gets smaller, we really need to work together ooc. if a rogue/ranger can handle the traps and locks, they should try to speak up about it as everyone is preparing to enter a dungeon? Then there is no argument, everyone should know at the beginning.

And even if it is completely IC for a PC to make toothpicks out of every door, perhaps "this one time" the door survives.

Then there are the traps of Hel'byssia. Geeahhhahhhh *shudder* Nah, they don't even count as traps.
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Re: The Death of the Rogue

PostAuthor: Tel » Fri Apr 29, 2016 7:54 pm

DC 36+ auto reset traps on plot containers/doors require a rogue. But that means 1 Rogue level, or a pixie familiar... Or if no one is online people can't go there (I'm looking at you FOIG!)

In larger groups getting the rogue to the front isn't easy without bumping someone onto the trap (or them not seeing them in time)

I wish there were a speedy practical way to handle them.... I miss my old rogue/assassin traveling buddy
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Re: The Death of the Rogue

PostAuthor: Basto » Fri Apr 29, 2016 7:58 pm

GunnJ wrote:What I've run into more and more is the rogue/ranger who has no picklock or trapping skill points having put lots of points into sneak and hide, so the group looks to the Rogue and the Rogue blinks back.

As the player base gets smaller, we really need to work together ooc. if a rogue/ranger can handle the traps and locks, they should try to speak up about it as everyone is preparing to enter a dungeon? Then there is no argument, everyone should know at the beginning.

And even if it is completely IC for a PC to make toothpicks out of every door, perhaps "this one time" the door survives.


I agree with this. I play a level 33 pure rogue who's taken Skill Mastery and Epic Skill Foci in Search, Disable Lock, and Open Trap, and I try to make clear ICly that traps and locks are my specialty. But I think a lot of dungeon designs (bashable doors and chests, low-DC traps and locks that are pixie-friendly) cater to the fact that not many people want to play a high-level Rogue-class PC when there are so many flashier options out there.

Micah was talking years ago about designing more dungeons with very high disable DCs and unbashable components, but with a lower playerbase and a paucity of PCs with epic-level disable skills, those would likely go unused.

I don't think there's an easy solution to it, but selfishly I'd like to see most dungeons need a lock-and-trap rogue with skills sufficient to the difficulty level of the dungeon. Not just to maximize loot, but, in some cases, to be able to reach the end. That would solve some of the problems I hear mentioned in this thread, as well as help high-level Rogues overcome the bane of the class - soloing.

Also, it would be a bonus if parties were more amenable to a little trap setting. I know spell durations are an issue, but still ...

EDIT: I do see a lot of multi-classes (especially wizards, thanks to their high INTs and skill points) with a handful of rogue levels who seem to put all their skill points into disable trap and open lock, so even a DC of 50 isn't all that overwhelming. "I want to open locks and traps" is a perfectly reasonable justification for doing this, but raising the DCs across the board and requiring a bit more of an investment in terms of levels might be something to think about.
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Re: The Death of the Rogue

PostAuthor: Grunt » Fri Apr 29, 2016 8:16 pm

The downside to raising DCs across the board is that then only the rogues would be able to get the loot!

...actually, forget I said anything. Raise away! :D

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Re: The Death of the Rogue

PostAuthor: Crabapple » Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:06 pm

Rogue/Ranger is a pretty non-optimal build (I'm currently doing it).

It is tough for me to keep search/disable/open lock skills high, but not impossible - the current result looks a bit like a late bloomer. I'm exactly 10th level right now, I've nearly managed to keep the sneak skills max, but I am seeing now I will have to start pulling back on those two to ensure that trap and lock skills are accounted for along the way. Which means Little C might struggle a bit with traps. I think I could manage with a few tricks for level appropriate dungeon runs, but I do see how easy it can be to let those skills slide for others with a more immediate benefit.

If you want to play with CTS as a ranger you need to make sure animal empathy stays up there and discipline (holy cow discipline). For pure dex monkeys that refuse to wear armor, tumble needs to be considered as well. Too many skills to manage without going heavy rogue to help you get saturated with skill points.

But I've heard it more than a few times when doing a dungeon crawl-

P1: Should we scout for traps?
P2: I can just disarm with my toes.

Yeah, maybe the rogue is dead.

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Re: The Death of the Rogue

PostAuthor: Manuel the White » Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:09 pm

Add a few unbreakable chests to epic dungeons with very high trap/lock DCs with above average drops. Increase the resale value of traps at some merchants to more than 20 gold. Switch some traps to disjunctions rather than spikes. Let's see how many parties start seeking out rogues. Isn't there a dungeon competition going on?
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Re: The Death of the Rogue

PostAuthor: Elradra » Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:48 pm

The rogues helped design all of the dungeons in the world so all the competent adventurers would be playing in dank holes out in the wild instead of helping the guards in town. The trapmonkey might not be having a good time but the burglars are chasing those DC 99 locks in Mikona.
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Re: The Death of the Rogue

PostAuthor: EvilKneevil » Sat Apr 30, 2016 6:28 am

Manuel the White wrote:Add a few unbreakable chests to epic dungeons with very high trap/lock DCs with above average drops. Increase the resale value of traps at some merchants to more than 20 gold. Switch some traps to disjunctions rather than spikes. Let's see how many parties start seeking out rogues. Isn't there a dungeon competition going on?

Word ! :cooler:
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Re: The Death of the Rogue

PostAuthor: GunnJ » Sat Apr 30, 2016 8:46 am

I recently learned (or was reminded, I probably knew this once) that Avlis does have this great trap system, its worth the read.

http://wiki.avlis.org/Trap_System
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Re: The Death of the Rogue

PostAuthor: Kandi_Nulein » Sat Apr 30, 2016 10:25 am

GunnJ wrote:I recently learned (or was reminded, I probably knew this once) that Avlis does have this great trap system, its worth the read.

http://wiki.avlis.org/Trap_System


QFT

It's such a smashing system!
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Re: The Death of the Rogue

PostAuthor: badjabadjabadja » Sat Apr 30, 2016 12:18 pm

Seka wrote:Fragile Contents system


This!
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Re: The Death of the Rogue

PostAuthor: Xeo » Sat Apr 30, 2016 12:29 pm

Not an OOC plug but a couple of us have been trying to make one of the P-Merchants a trap supplier and also components... I be honest I really don't know of the system IG and OOC.
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