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Holy warriors / Dispel resistance

PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:56 am
Author: Manuel the White
Are a HW caster levels added to a spell's dispel resistance, or did I imagine that someplace?

Thanks!

Re: Holy warriors / Dispel resistance

PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:22 am
Author: Gorgon
I'm no expert, so someone else can correct me if I'm wrong here (the risks of asking in GD).
IIRC half your HW level is added to your caster level, which increases the dispel dc, so yes? I've never played one (except a bit of testing long ago), so I could be way off too.

Re: Holy warriors / Dispel resistance

PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:23 am
Author: Hawkmoon
Yup should be half your HW level on the odds i think.

Re: Holy warriors / Dispel resistance

PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:07 am
Author: maxinion
Gorgon wrote:I'm no expert, so someone else can correct me if I'm wrong here (the risks of asking in GD).
IIRC half your HW level is added to your caster level, which increases the dispel dc, so yes? I've never played one (except a bit of testing long ago), so I could be way off too.


Yup, that's correct, though this is a fairly recent change (in the past year or so).

Re: Holy warriors / Dispel resistance

PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:59 am
Author: Gorgon
Not recent. From the 1.7 (or earlier) SHS stuff. I remember the complaints when it was reduced from a 1:1 ratio for a few.

Re: Holy warriors / Dispel resistance

PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:43 am
Author: Halitherses
Would I be correct in guessing that the same 2:1 deal doesn't apply to Palemasters?

Re: Holy warriors / Dispel resistance

PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:00 pm
Author: Gumble Tinkertumble
Actually, I thought it did apply to palemasters, as they are so busy concentrating on perfecting their necromantic arts. In other words, they get other bonuses and their spells know/per day goes up on odd levels only. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Re: Holy warriors / Dispel resistance

PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:25 pm
Author: Manuel the White
Maybe this line on Pale Master wiki page is what got me thinking about HW implementation of dispel resist:

However, this only affects damage and duration for hooked spells, dispelling another caster's spells, and spell penetration, but not dispel resistance.

Re: Holy warriors / Dispel resistance

PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:40 pm
Author: maxinion
Manuel the White wrote:Maybe this line on Pale Master wiki page is what got me thinking about HW implementation of dispel resist:

However, this only affects damage and duration for hooked spells, dispelling another caster's spells, and spell penetration, but not dispel resistance.


That is out of date. It should work for PM's as well.

Re: Holy warriors / Dispel resistance

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:26 am
Author: Halitherses
maxinion wrote:
Manuel the White wrote:Maybe this line on Pale Master wiki page is what got me thinking about HW implementation of dispel resist:

However, this only affects damage and duration for hooked spells, dispelling another caster's spells, and spell penetration, but not dispel resistance.


That is out of date. It should work for PM's as well.


I'm not sure that is is working for PMs.

Just ran a few tests with a 13/9 Wizard/PM. The effective caster level is 18, so against Dispel Magic, only one in twenty spells should be getting dispelled. (Dispel's check is D20+10. The resistance should be 12+18, or 30.)

The results were that significantly more than one out of twenty spells were being dispelled.

Re: Holy warriors / Dispel resistance

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:39 am
Author: Sathsarrion
Halitherses wrote:I'm not sure that is is working for PMs.

Just ran a few tests with a 13/9 Wizard/PM. The effective caster level is 18, so against Dispel Magic, only one in twenty spells should be getting dispelled. (Dispel's check is D20+10. The resistance should be 12+18, or 30.)

The results were that significantly more than one out of twenty spells were being dispelled.

First of all, I've head several people express doubts about whether NWNs random number generator is really as random as it should be, so that isn't really a type of test you can rely on too much. A better test would be to find the boundary conditions where a dispel is either guaranteed to work, or impossible.

Second, I think your math is a little off. A 13/9 Wizard/PM has effective caster level of 17, and the dispel resistance is 11 + caster level, not 12. That would mean on average, a Dispel should work 3 out of 20 times.

Re: Holy warriors / Dispel resistance

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:15 am
Author: Darkfire
13 + 4 = 17, yeah

And it does work, I've dispelled many a high CL mages before. :)

Re: Holy warriors / Dispel resistance

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:07 am
Author: Halitherses
Sathsarrion wrote:First of all, I've head several people express doubts about whether NWNs random number generator is really as random as it should be, so that isn't really a type of test you can rely on too much. A better test would be to find the boundary conditions where a dispel is either guaranteed to work, or impossible.

Second, I think your math is a little off. A 13/9 Wizard/PM has effective caster level of 17, and the dispel resistance is 11 + caster level, not 12. That would mean on average, a Dispel should work 3 out of 20 times.


PM bonus caster levels are given out every odd level, so nine levels will give a caster level bonus of 5. Also, the dispel resistance is misreported in-game. It's actually 12+caster level. (Weird, I know.)

You're right about the peculiarities of the RNG creating issues, though. The boundary is the ideal testing ground. That'll be a 14/9 Wizard/PM, with 31 resistance, so I'll be able to test it for certain in a level.


Darkfire wrote:13 + 4 = 17, yeah

And it does work, I've dispelled many a high CL mages before. :)

I don't know about dispelling others - I haven't gotten around to that yet! :p

Re: Holy warriors / Dispel resistance

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:50 am
Author: Darkfire
Halitherses wrote:
Sathsarrion wrote:First of all, I've head several people express doubts about whether NWNs random number generator is really as random as it should be, so that isn't really a type of test you can rely on too much. A better test would be to find the boundary conditions where a dispel is either guaranteed to work, or impossible.

Second, I think your math is a little off. A 13/9 Wizard/PM has effective caster level of 17, and the dispel resistance is 11 + caster level, not 12. That would mean on average, a Dispel should work 3 out of 20 times.


PM bonus caster levels are given out every odd level, so nine levels will give a caster level bonus of 5. Also, the dispel resistance is misreported in-game. It's actually 12+caster level. (Weird, I know.)

You're right about the peculiarities of the RNG creating issues, though. The boundary is the ideal testing ground. That'll be a 14/9 Wizard/PM, with 31 resistance, so I'll be able to test it for certain in a level.


Darkfire wrote:13 + 4 = 17, yeah

And it does work, I've dispelled many a high CL mages before. :)

I don't know about dispelling others - I haven't gotten around to that yet! :p



That may be when some of the bonuses are given out (spells, bonus spells, etc.) for PMs, but the formula for all of that if I recall correctly is 1/2 of your PM levels rounded down. 9/2 = 4.5 -> 4

Re: Holy warriors / Dispel resistance

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:43 pm
Author: Halitherses
Darkfire wrote:That may be when some of the bonuses are given out (spells, bonus spells, etc.) for PMs, but the formula for all of that if I recall correctly is 1/2 of your PM levels rounded down. 9/2 = 4.5 -> 4

Is it possible to scribe scrolls with a caster level higher than the character's caster level? I've been using scroll scribing as the indicator of caster level. The highest caster level my 13/9 wiz/PM can scribe at present is 18. (Screenshots: Actual levels, the scroll's caster level.)

Re: Holy warriors / Dispel resistance

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:28 pm
Author: Gumble Tinkertumble
Halitherses wrote:
Darkfire wrote:That may be when some of the bonuses are given out (spells, bonus spells, etc.) for PMs, but the formula for all of that if I recall correctly is 1/2 of your PM levels rounded down. 9/2 = 4.5 -> 4

Is it possible to scribe scrolls with a caster level higher than the character's caster level? I've been using scroll scribing as the indicator of caster level. The highest caster level my 13/9 wiz/PM can scribe at present is 18. (Screenshots: Actual levels, the scroll's caster level.)


Just looking at the levels... if PM levels are being taken into account at every odd level then that is +5, which added to your 13 wiz levels does equal 18. So maybe it's not 9/2 rounded down.

Re: Holy warriors / Dispel resistance

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:42 pm
Author: Aeveras
Gumble Tinkertumble wrote:Just looking at the levels... if PM levels are being taken into account at every odd level then that is +5, which added to your 13 wiz levels does equal 18. So maybe it's not 9/2 rounded down.


That may seem so, but spell advancement and caster level aren't the same thing. At every odd level, you get new spells and spell slots as if you had advanced a level, but you don't get a caster level increase. This is because CL is calculated is 1/2 Palemaster level rounded down, like Darkfire stated, so the level at which you receive new spells has nothing to do with CL.

This is an improvement over vanilla, non-spellhooked NWN in which Palemasters did not increase their CL (by design, in fact).

Re: Holy warriors / Dispel resistance

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:10 pm
Author: rk57957
Halitherses wrote:Is it possible to scribe scrolls with a caster level higher than the character's caster level? I've been using scroll scribing as the indicator of caster level. The highest caster level my 13/9 wiz/PM can scribe at present is 18. (Screenshots: Actual levels, the scroll's caster level.)


To answer your question of is it possible to scribe scrolls with a caster level higher than the characters CL the answer is take a look at my spiffy IG book that I have conveniently copied to the wiki.. The answer is yes but you have to find out in game how to do it (Doh! it is the dreaded FOIG!)

I'm going to take a stab in the dark here since I know nothing of pale masters but it looks like you are getting a +5 bonus to CL from your 9 pale master levels which makes sense so while you have technically 22 levels in arcane classes you are only have 18 caster levels. So the highest scroll you can scribe by yourself is going to have a CL of 18. Once you go up another wizard level or two more pale master levels you'll be CL of 19. But fret not because as I stated earlier there are ways to get your caster level higher, you just have to ask the right people.

Re: Holy warriors / Dispel resistance

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:02 am
Author: Gorgon
Before this topic goes into the dead horse graveyard, I figured I'd add some stuff that didn't fit into the FOIG category for game mechanics stuff (hopefully), and answer what I think was true when I knew it. I don't work here now (so take it all with a grain of salt), but I remember some stuff. As always, if I'm overstepping what stuff I should mention, I have no problem with the Avlis staff making edits, or deleting it all (or slapping me hard).

Unless things have changed recently (in the last few months), or I'm an idiot, and don't know what I'm talking about...

1) Palemaster levels are added to caster level at every odd level, starting at 1st (you all sort of agree on that, but that is how it is).

2)
Sathsarrion wrote:... the dispel resistance is 11 + caster level, not 12.

Halitherses wrote:... the dispel resistance is misreported in-game. It's actually 12+caster level. (Weird, I know.)

12+ is how Bioware does it in NWN. Avlis spell-hooking uses 11+. When it come to dispel stuff, disregard most things on the NWN wiki, since all of those things are quite different here, especially with more recent changes. Literally everything has been rewritten from almost the base code up here in some cases (Google NWNX and check out the site's forum if you wonder why I can make that kind of claim. It came from here, along with many other things people take for granted these days). Sadly the Avlis wiki is slow at keeping up, but trust me on that.

Your modifier for abjuration focus not only increases your chance of dispelling, but it also increases the number of protections they all will try to dispel when cast as an AoE (Avlis doesn't dispel the best spell only here on AoE). Selecting a target still tries to dispel all of its buffs, but even a lesser dispel tries to strip at least 2 spells now in an AoE casting (+2 per step up to 8 as a base in disjunction AoE). Add in full epic abjuration focus for another 6 spells and greater dispelling is scary with the additional cap improvements from AMS/Trust/Favored cap increases. Uncapped disjunction with all that, and the breaches, is something I flee when a real caster is behind it.

3)
Halitherses wrote:Is it possible to scribe scrolls with a caster level higher than the character's caster level?

Yes, and quite a bit. Again, it comes from AMS/Trust/Favored stuff mentioned above, and isn't FOIG (though RK would like it to be for book sales :P ), since it is on the Wiki. http://wiki.avlis.org/Transmutant#Level_8 Transmuters casting black-staff on a sorc/wiz can increase their caster level, and most of those 3 PrCs include extra perks for cl, spell caps and dc as well (some being conditional). All are earned by excellent RP, and getting two of those PrCs on the same PC (and especially at higher levels in them) means everyone should know who you are, and react to your name (good or bad... you decide). If you want to set a silly goal, try that, and RP your heart out to do it, but I would bet against you getting more than one type on a PC.

I know it has happened once, but I've been out of the loop for a while... and he was made an NPC. (Smeec goal ftw! :eg: ... Not the PrC stuff (couldn't care less), but the NPCifying thing. We have a few rare remorts that chose to be made into NPCs, but no one seems to care now. At least a few names still sound familiar when they get face to face with them IG.)

*Edited for a typo fix. Misspelled Avlis. So bad.*

Re: Holy warriors / Dispel resistance

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:04 am
Author: rk57957
*Hangs his head in shame having forgotten that all the awesomeness of blackstaff was on the wiki*

Re: Holy warriors / Dispel resistance

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:10 am
Author: Gorgon
And you still wonder why Smeec never complains about what you charge for anything you make for him at Kassha's cl? It isn't about the duration :P

*edits* ok, maybe the haste wands