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griefing and Sereg

Forum for posing direct questions to the Avlis Team. Purpose is to facilitate Team/Player communication.

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PostAuthor: choraldances » Wed Apr 07, 2004 11:29 pm

AGain, no one is forcing anyone to play SEreg PC's.

If you play it, you will deal with the consequences. It's a Custom Race, it's not a default race. It's not even one of the nine Major races.

So if you CHOOSE to play it, you will deal with it ICly.

AND, the person who created Sereg's, Silk, will EXPECT no less than that.
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PostAuthor: Khallendros » Wed Apr 07, 2004 11:33 pm

i have found that fighter and rogue sereg builds work with the char vault, but a monk build will not...any knowledge behind this?
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PostAuthor: Vergilius » Wed Apr 07, 2004 11:34 pm

Earandel Senessa wrote:What happens to the poor first day player trying to harvest wheat to gain that first thousand XP gets repeatedly killed by an opponent that they can not see? How many potentially great players will this drive off? Now, I understand that the people choocing to play Sereg now will not do that, but by making the race available to anyone, it becomes an invitation to PvP players.

If the KoS on Sereg is going to be a one way street (they can be killed on sight but cannot kill on sight) then why would anyone choose to play one? Is this a race that is really needed for PCs?


2 points: in CvC there are guidelines, gentleman rules per se: most people are appreciative of the fact that newbies play in our world. Thus, they can and should overlook the ICedness of killing a lowbie for the sake of them getting into the game. Killing a level 1-2 is fairly low on the totem poll in my book and is just begging for a 10 page rant thread.

Secondly, repeatedly killing the same PC is taboo as well. One kill, move on.

In regards to the Sereg as PC race, give them a chance. While I don't see any fun or RP value in it for myself, other people perhaps do. Also realize that any character that engages in a mass killing spree is potentially griefing. the burden has always been upon the perpetrator to watch out for the interests of the other player's fun.

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PostAuthor: Vergilius » Wed Apr 07, 2004 11:38 pm

choraldances wrote:
So, let's deal with it ICly. Whether you're a Sereg or a PC meeting a Sereg.


I want to reiterate just that: there is a lot here that is "hypothetical" and/or based on irrational fears. the initial question was good because it basically asked "where is the line?" How does this work with griefing?" etc

After this, I've seen a lot of theoretical/hypothetical posts. Keep it IC. Trust the other player to deal fairly with you. Its their responsibility to know the rules, world information, and follow them, same as yours. Trust them to handle it correctly. If you feel you've been griefed, send a report to the team.

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PostAuthor: CPU » Wed Apr 07, 2004 11:49 pm

There are ways to hide who and what you are. I'm sure we'll see some of this. Sereg will be in town for supplies in disguise. I do not think it will be as bad as it sounds here.

Don't forget the other side of the coin (Wrath your dream character is finally here!) . As a Sereg, you can allow yourself to be constantly challenged. As a Sereg, you must defend yourself from being attacked by others. As Sereg, if aren't killed, then probably some other player character was. :shock:

As long as you don't start it, you can certainly finish it. Something for all players to think about...
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PostAuthor: makeshiftwings » Thu Apr 08, 2004 12:48 am

This is just one person's opinion, but I'm not thrilled with the fact that Seregs are playable PCs now. One of the things I liked about Avlis was that there were no Drow, because Drow are supposed to be almost universally evil, and it was annoying on other servers when there would be tons of drow PCs walking around playing redeemed drows or "evil" drow that were only evil because they were rude when speaking. Sereg are different than drow, but very similar in many ways, namely the fact that they are supposed to be evil and universally hated, and now there are most likely going to be hordes of redeemed and not-really-evil ones walking around. Not to mention that more and more PC drow might make their way to Avlis as well. A "good" drow or sereg should be one in a million; I hate seeing three or four a day. And it's hard to RP still hating them when there will be lots of characters and OOC friends talking about 21st-century racial profiling and how their drow and sereg friends are an exception to the rule and that we should give all of them a chance, when REALLY we all know that their exploration of the morality of a sereg is limited to "if it's got a gamespy name, talk to it; if it's glowing red, kill it". :/
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PostAuthor: Nightshade » Thu Apr 08, 2004 1:10 am

makeshiftwings wrote:This is just one person's opinion, but I'm not thrilled with the fact that Seregs are playable PCs now. One of the things I liked about Avlis was that there were no Drow, because Drow are supposed to be almost universally evil, and it was annoying on other servers when there would be tons of drow PCs walking around playing redeemed drows or "evil" drow that were only evil because they were rude when speaking. Sereg are different than drow, but very similar in many ways, namely the fact that they are supposed to be evil and universally hated, and now there are most likely going to be hordes of redeemed and not-really-evil ones walking around. Not to mention that more and more PC drow might make their way to Avlis as well. A "good" drow or sereg should be one in a million; I hate seeing three or four a day. And it's hard to RP still hating them when there will be lots of characters and OOC friends talking about 21st-century racial profiling and how their drow and sereg friends are an exception to the rule and that we should give all of them a chance, when REALLY we all know that their exploration of the morality of a sereg is limited to "if it's got a gamespy name, talk to it; if it's glowing red, kill it". :/



Hear hear. If I see one more Drizzt wannabe on one more server, I may go ballistic. :evil: (Until, of course, Arc gets another rock dropped on his head by another giant. :oops: )
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PostAuthor: Deider » Thu Apr 08, 2004 1:14 am

Malathyre wrote:Doesn't it also put some players, who do not play Sereg, into a position they would rather not be in? Folks who are in the 95% of KoS are relegated to basically having to kill other PC's on sight without any real interaction between them.


You don't have to do anything. You are never required to roleplay a certain way, with the obvious exception that you must RP in accordance with the few guidelines that have been laid down in an attempt to make sure everyone is having fun.

If you don't want to kill some, don't kill them, walk away or find some other IC option. It's as easy as that.
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PostAuthor: NWDuneAuron » Thu Apr 08, 2004 8:22 am

Well, you could think of it this way:

If you're playing a Sereg, expect to be Killed. Lots.

If you're playing anyone else, near a PC Sereg, expect to be killed.

Sounds about fair to me..? :).
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PostAuthor: HarveyH » Thu Apr 08, 2004 8:38 am

never mind
Last edited by HarveyH on Thu Apr 08, 2004 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostAuthor: Tyrion77 » Thu Apr 08, 2004 8:41 am

NWDuneAuron wrote:If you're playing anyone else, near a PC Sereg, expect to be killed.


See! and "that's" why we hate them.. you don't kill all your possible slaves and/or pets.. they may be usefull later.. no subtlety that's the problem it's all kill kill kill, with a little work you can have them all defending your honour or something :wink:

(Unless you haven't guessed.. plays a Drow and is jokeing)
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PostAuthor: Heronimous Fox » Thu Apr 08, 2004 8:59 am

NWDuneAuron wrote:Well, you could think of it this way:

If you're playing a Sereg, expect to be Killed. Lots.

If you're playing anyone else, near a PC Sereg, expect to be killed.

Sounds about fair to me..? :).


Only if the're human and you (the sereg) have nt shaken off your conditioning.
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PostAuthor: Nob » Thu Apr 08, 2004 9:05 am

Heronimous Fox wrote:
NWDuneAuron wrote:Well, you could think of it this way:

If you're playing a Sereg, expect to be Killed. Lots.

If you're playing anyone else, near a PC Sereg, expect to be killed.

Sounds about fair to me..? :).


Only if the're human and you (the sereg) have nt shaken off your conditioning.


As I understand it, aren't all PC sereg unconditioned?(Hence their low starting level, stats, lack of insane uber abilities, etc?)
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PostAuthor: obsidian » Thu Apr 08, 2004 9:15 am

I have a vision of a Sereg character. I agree fully that the character will have to endure beatings, humiliations, etc. However, trying to overcome that and still manage to rp well is a great challenge. Also, I do not think the KoS thing necessitates psycho-killer grief-style playing. When in doubt, use common sense and avoid killing other people's fun. I imagine ooc tells can be used in this to avoid misunderstandings.

Playing evil does not always mean stupid evil who cannot hide or bide their time.

People can kick up Sereg characters and throw them out of cities when they're caught. Doesn't mean that you have to kick them all the way to deathplane and dryloot every time, you can make allowances for fun rp instead of total realism. Goody guys do not always grief bad guys, even if that would make more rp sense than have 'gentleman's agreements'.

Hatred for humans/halfbreeds and traitor elves who defend them still leaves halflings, gnomes and dwarves etc..

What I see here is a knee-jerk reaction to something that hasn't even happened yet. Playing a hated race like Sereg is an unknown yet on Avlis, let's examine that unknown and see where it leads.
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PostAuthor: Scurvy_Platypus » Thu Apr 08, 2004 9:44 am

*sigh*
Looks like another horse is born.

Well, for whatever it's worth:
Silk wrote:Even if the conditioning breaks (which, for a PC, we can safely assume), a hatred for Humans is pretty much still there... it's just not enforced by conditioning.

There's also a hatred for Nanshi Elves because they betrayed the Sereg'wthrin.


Let's establish a few "working facts" shall we?

1. Sereg PCs are no longer conditioned.

2. Sereg are going to hate both Humans and Elves. Half Elves...well, why not.

3. As far as characters are concerned Sereg are ruthless killers. Doesn't matter if you cheer them on, or hate and fear them.

4. Elysia is neutral in the war. Both sides of the army have demonstrated an ability to abide by that neutrality. Why? In part because it's a National war. Sereg on the other hand are engaged in a Racial war.

5. Sereg PCs shouldn't be welcomed with open arms. It's not like they're Shaahesk with a thriving (if unseen by PCs) culture, and one of the Nine Races of Avlis.

6. A general "KOS" is going to exist on Sereg. It's logical, and it's the way things have always been done.

7. Just because there's a KOS order, _DOESN'T_ mean you have to grief the Sereg PC. Example taken from here:
Silk wrote:My Favorite:

*Sereg'wethrin Shaal'thour is surrounded by no less than 20 PCs beating it down after a mage cast Bigby's Holding Spell on him*
* It get's down to 10% of it's life and starts yelling*
Sereg: "I SUBMIT. HOLD. STAND DOWN, I GIVE UP. WAIT UP, I'LL TELL YOU ALL THE SECRETS"
Mage1: "Hold! He's talking... he's going to tell us the secrets"
Fighter1: "NO HE'S LIEING... KILL HIM"
*fighters keep beating on him*
Mage2 : *gets out notebook*
Mage1: "STOP HITTING HIM!!!... NOW!!"
Fighter2: "Whatever, He's lieing"
*fighters keep beating on him*
Mage1 and Mage2 : "DAMNIT HOLD!!!"
*fighters stopping hitting him*
Sereg: "I'll tell you the secret to the underground city... blah blah blah"
*sereg talks nonsense for a bit*
*Bigby's hold spell wears off*
*Sereg runs like his ass was on fire*
*Sereg escapes to the wilderness*
*Fighters and Mages curse*


What cracked me up the most, was that's the third time this tactic worked that evening. LOL!!!

Of course, Feeb tracked him through the wilderness and kicked him a new asshole... but that's another story.


I'd say pretty clearly there were at least a few people that had reason not to kill a Sereg. Sure they didn't because they wanted to interrogate it...but if you're really that "worried" about griefing a Sereg PC, I'm _sure_ you can find a perfectly IC reason to let the poor 6 HP Sereg crawl out of town.

8. We've got plenty of guidelines for people concealing their identities. And I've seen an awful lot of people going on about how IC it is for them to always wear whatever helm it is they've got on. So, you can cut the Sereg a little bit of slack, and let the poor bastard try and hide who and what he is.

9. The team will investigate any and all reports of griefing, JUST like we've always done. If there's actually a case of it, appropriate actions will be taken.

It's simple folks. Relax. Play the game. Just because your character is supposed to kill Sereg, doesn't mean the team expects everyone to be griefers. You want a reason why you shouldn't kill one? Look to your alignment. I'm sure at least a few "good" players can have a decent enough rationale for why they should let it live. Especially if it seems like it might be reforming and changing it's ways. And for the evils out there, it's always nice to have an ally. Especially a homicidal one. Never know but that homicidal rage might work for you, and certainly being on good terms with it can't be bad. It's not like it's a demon right?

I think that about covers it. Any other questions?
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PostAuthor: KTA » Thu Apr 08, 2004 9:48 am

I don't get the big point of this discussion...
Orleron wrote:Relations : Sereg'wethrin maintain a strong hatred of Humans. They see Humans as a viral culture that is a threat to all other cultures near them. Unless their are predefined arrangements, they will attack any Human on sight.

Sereg'wethrin maintain, by default, a non agressive (even friendly) relationship with most other races.

So you may be surprised not to be kos as much as you may think...

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PostAuthor: Heronimous Fox » Thu Apr 08, 2004 10:28 am

Also the fact that:

1. a sereg doesnt attack your character on sight
2. you can see a sereg

may give your character pasue for thought.
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PostAuthor: Khaelindra » Thu Apr 08, 2004 11:00 am

Divinia will just try to have all Sereg convert to a life in service of Cha'Reth... :D

Hmm...recruit the Sereg to kill all soldiers of T'Nanshi and M'Chek, forcing them to make peace...what an interesting option... :twisted: :lol: 8) :wink:
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PostAuthor: kombinat » Thu Apr 08, 2004 11:29 am

Khaelindra wrote:recruit the Sereg to kill all soldiers of T'Nanshi and M'Chek


Interesting indeed... :D
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PostAuthor: Nighthawk4 » Thu Apr 08, 2004 12:21 pm

Quiz001 wrote:Maybe for those wishing to play a Sereg, a small 'safe' area, just so they can get started out and feel the warmth of Sereg companionship?? :twisted:
Heh - I must admit, I admire anyone prepared to go through the pain of RPing one of these things - but I like the fact that the team's put it there as an option for anyone feeling 'ard enough.


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PostAuthor: Silk » Thu Apr 08, 2004 1:42 pm

If you choose to play a Sereg'wethrin, you are choosing to be the target of all Humans and Nanshi Elves and their friends.

A sereg's primary weapon is deception. Whether it be visual deception (stealth) or social deception... they need to perfect these attributes in order to survive outside of the underdark.

As a PC sereg grows and realizes that he's going to get attacked immediately when a party encounters him... he will learn to strike first and fade away. He will learn to be smart and ambush... taking out the weak PCs so that the strong PC's get distracted.

When you take out the weak PCs you do a few things:
a) Make the strong PCs choose to press on fighting you, or help their weaker friends survive
b) Make the weaker targets learn that, when encountering Sereg, they will be the first casualties... which will make them choose whether it is prudent to stay and fight or flee.
c) Reduce the number of opponents efficiently.

A single PC fighting a sereg while his weaker friends are dieing looks really bad... It gets worse if a friend dies and you escape.

Fight Dirty, fight hard, fight fast, and get away. Ambush, sneak attack, get away.
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PostAuthor: Titanium Dragon » Thu Apr 08, 2004 2:23 pm

Of course, its very hard to figure out who is the most powerful PC in a group if you've never seen them before... *shrugs*
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PostAuthor: Dralix » Thu Apr 08, 2004 2:26 pm

Stalk your prey first. Watch them as they engage in others.

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PostAuthor: Silk » Thu Apr 08, 2004 2:39 pm

Dralix wrote:Stalk your prey first. Watch them as they engage in others.


Ding ding ding.. we have a winner.

Do you think I just spawn and attack? I spawn, hide, stalk and observe what is said... what spell effects appear and who cast them... What people are wearing... how easily they kill other targets...

Then I stealth over to the schlub in a leather jerkin with a bow in the back... and give him a little dirt nap.

This is followed by everyone turning around and saying something like "What the fek?".

Now this is where it get's really interesting. After that first take down, you see people start buffing... you see some people start freaking out... you see some people start searching.

The People that freak out, are more often than not the weak ones. The people searching are probably the strong ones. And the buffers are in the middle depending on what spells they're buffing with (if you can tell that).
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PostAuthor: Malathyre » Thu Apr 08, 2004 4:16 pm

Thanks again for all the responses. It was never my intention to start a thread that turned into another horse we could beat to death, but the original intention was to clarify what was and what was not within the rules of Avlis. Hindsight being 20/20, I probably should have left it at that instead of starting a discussion of how Sereg PC's affect rp. *shrugs* Oh well. The initial question has been answered, and I feel like a clearer understanding what is and is not acceptable behavior concerning Sereg PC's has been established. I'm willing to kill a few metaphorical horses for that.
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