Server Totals
Mikona - (1)
Deglos - (1)
Ferrell - (1)
M'Chek - (1)
Underdark - (0)
Elysia - (0)
Wilderness - (0)
Le'Or - (0)
Visimontium - (0)
Total players: 4
Gallery

Links Menu

griefing and Sereg

Forum for posing direct questions to the Avlis Team. Purpose is to facilitate Team/Player communication.

Moderators: Nighthawk4, Dungeon Masters

griefing and Sereg

PostAuthor: Malathyre » Wed Apr 07, 2004 9:40 pm

Now that several folks have started making PC sereg, even though they seem bugged right now...how are we supposed to keep from griefing them and stay IC? Most other PC's in this game will kill Sereg on sight, no questions asked, and some are even ordered to by IC organizations. Granted, seeing a sereg, even a first level one is probably no easy task, but in general, killing another PC on sight with no interaction at all is not a good idea...but then again neither is talking to or dealing with the Sereg in any other way, in my experience.

Thanks in advance!
"The stars predict tomorrow you'll wake up, do a bunch of stuff, and then go back to sleep!"--Your Horoscope for Today, Weird Al Yankovic
User avatar
Malathyre
Sage
 
Posts: 2081
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2003 8:47 pm
Location: Michigan, U.S.A. (GMT-5)

PostAuthor: NWDuneAuron » Wed Apr 07, 2004 9:44 pm

I'm fully expecting to be griefed with my Sereg PC. I would suggest that other people planning on playing them adopt the same attitude when playing their Sereg.
User avatar
NWDuneAuron
Sage
 
Posts: 1836
Joined: Fri May 02, 2003 10:13 am
Location: Britain, GMT

PostAuthor: Dralix » Wed Apr 07, 2004 9:49 pm

NWDuneAuron wrote:I'm fully expecting to be griefed with my Sereg PC. I would suggest that other people planning on playing them adopt the same attitude when playing their Sereg.


I would replace "griefed" with "killed on sight"

Dralix
Silver Contributor
 
Posts: 4764
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 6:08 pm
Location: FTP

PostAuthor: Vroshgrak » Wed Apr 07, 2004 9:50 pm

dont say griefed. theres CvC but thats far different than griefing.
User avatar
Vroshgrak
Team Member; Retired with Honors
 
Posts: 4057
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2003 4:24 pm
Location: Corvallis Oregon
Timezone: Pacific (GMT -8/-7)
DM Avatar: Hurine

PostAuthor: Vergilius » Wed Apr 07, 2004 9:52 pm

Dralix is right, there is a big difference between "killed on sight" and "griefing". Basically, it is a player's choice whether to roll up a Sereg or not. The Sereg have been around long enough for people to understand the stigma attatched. A player can and should be aware of the background of the Sereg before playing one and therefore would know what to expect.

Killing does not equal griefing.

Vergilius
Team Member; Retired with Honors
 
Posts: 8270
Joined: Sun May 04, 2003 2:37 am
Location: Austin Texas, again
Timezone: US Central

PostAuthor: Vanor » Wed Apr 07, 2004 9:55 pm

Malathyre, it's good you brought this up, as this does seem to viloate one of the basic rules we have here regarding CvC combat and conflect.

Sereg PC's are simply going to have to do as NWDuneAuron did, and accept the fact that they are pretty much KoS by 95% of the PC's out there.

Alignment, race, ect... Has no factor in this to a point. Everyone knows how deadly and dangerious the Sereg are, and would be acting OOC if they didn't either run or attack instantlly.

In this case Deadly and Dangerious is different... Not only are Sereg quite able to kill most anyone, they most likely will kill most anyone they see.

This does however go against the standing rules regarding CvC combat, but I just can't see any logical way to do it otherwise... These are Sereg we're talking about...
User avatar
Vanor
Team Member; Retired with Honors
 
Posts: 8386
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2002 7:46 pm
Location: Wisconsin (GMT -5)

PostAuthor: Vanor » Wed Apr 07, 2004 9:57 pm

Vroshgrak wrote:theres CvC but thats far different than griefing.

Good point... But it's at least somewhat commonly accepted that a KoS order is akin to greifing on Avlis. That isn't always true, but that's the general outlook of many if not most PC's.
User avatar
Vanor
Team Member; Retired with Honors
 
Posts: 8386
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2002 7:46 pm
Location: Wisconsin (GMT -5)

PostAuthor: Dralix » Wed Apr 07, 2004 10:02 pm

I think the difference is in attitude. I know I'm playing semantics by preferring KoS to grief, but if someone rolls up a Sereg, I hope they enjoy being KoS. If that's the case, it would hardly be considered griefing.

Dralix
Silver Contributor
 
Posts: 4764
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 6:08 pm
Location: FTP

PostAuthor: Malathyre » Wed Apr 07, 2004 10:02 pm

Thanks for the quick responses. The problem I have, and this may come from being too Lawful in rl, is that this type of thing sets a precedent that could easily be used by people to justify actions in other areas. The, "If I can kill Sereg on sight, why can't I kill XXXX on sight?" argument. People should know what they are getting into yes, I have no problem with that...Sereg aren't going to be welcome in too many places on Avlis by anyone. I do not have a problem with CvC conflict either, but killing on sight with no questions asked, no quarter given ever, DOES NOT make for very good rp, imho...that just seems like graphics on a screen mindlessly bludgeoning each other. That is my primary issue, and my primary place of confusion. Please, I want feedback here, tell me how I am wrong and give me a different way of thinking about it.
"The stars predict tomorrow you'll wake up, do a bunch of stuff, and then go back to sleep!"--Your Horoscope for Today, Weird Al Yankovic
User avatar
Malathyre
Sage
 
Posts: 2081
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2003 8:47 pm
Location: Michigan, U.S.A. (GMT-5)

PostAuthor: Vanor » Wed Apr 07, 2004 10:11 pm

Malathyre wrote:The, "If I can kill Sereg on sight, why can't I kill XXXX on sight?" argument.


Because Sereg are a special case, in fact it's unlikely there will ever be another race or group that has the privliage of being on everyone's KoS list, and that idea being supported by the Staff.

I understand what you mean, it could be a sliper slope. But it won't become one.

I do not have a problem with CvC conflict either, but killing on sight with no questions asked, no quarter given ever, DOES NOT make for very good rp, imho.


It will make it very hard for a Sereg to RP, no question about it. But again this is a special case. Anyone who wishes to play a Sereg, must do so knowing full well what that means, what will happen to them, and what being one requires.

I understand where you're coming from, and if this were most any other race, I'd be inclined to agree with you. However on Avlis, Sereg, are universally evil, blood thirsty, homocidal manaics.
User avatar
Vanor
Team Member; Retired with Honors
 
Posts: 8386
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2002 7:46 pm
Location: Wisconsin (GMT -5)

PostAuthor: Croton » Wed Apr 07, 2004 10:11 pm

All IMO,

If a huge demon walks into Elysia, it gets KoS by most PCs.... did the demon do anything in Elysia to deserve that, maybe, maybe not, but its a demon, it gets killed. I think the same thing goes for Sereg and most PC groups.

The role play of a Sereg can come in at least 2 forms... other Sereg, and PC groups that don't kill them on sight. I'm sure there are a lot of characters out there that don't want to kill them.

another point is that if someone joins the army, they know they can't visibly go to the other country, else they are KoS. Same for taking a Sereg PC. No one is saying "you have to be a Sereg, or you can't play.

Croton
Team Member; Retired with Honors
 
Posts: 5950
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2003 4:29 pm
Location: (-4 GMT - Summer)

PostAuthor: Nighthawk4 » Wed Apr 07, 2004 10:19 pm

The precedent idea is a good point. I have a kobold, and orc and a gnoll as characters - all of whom are friendly and other PCs accept them as such - despite the fact that NPC versions of these races would be Hostile and treated as such.

However, my feeling is that the Sereg have not been created because it might be fun to RP a Sereg. I think they are there because we have most other races, so why can't we have Sereg? So here they are.

I also think that the Sereg are the exception to the usual rule (NPC = Hostile, but PC = Friendly). These are Sereg. So any Player who tries to play a Sereg must expect to run or hide or be killed on sight by any other characters (and maybe even NPCs). This is NOT griefing as such - this IS the correct RP. Sereg kill or are killed, without hesitation.

If Players kill them, wait until they return and kill them again, then that would be griefing. Just killing them without saying 'I don't like you so I am going to attack you' is not griefing.

This ONLY applies with Sereg - NOT any other Race or Order

Just my 2p worth.
Life is never as bad as you think it is, although that doesn't help at the time.

Orleron wrote:I think it's a fun idea if you can idiot-proof it. Problem is God always builds a better idiot. :P


Please visit:
Avlis UK, ACE Forum and SATF Forum

Image
User avatar
Nighthawk4
Eldest DM
Eldest DM
 
Posts: 23898
Images: 2
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2003 8:32 pm
Location: The Home of the Bard of Avon
Timezone: GMT
DM Avatar: DruEl

PostAuthor: Vergilius » Wed Apr 07, 2004 10:23 pm

IMHO, this is coming up precisely because it BREAKS precedent. Hereto, using race as an excuse to kill someone on sight has been seen as griefing. Its important to reiterate as the others have said that this exception is for Sereg only. If someone tries to use this as a precedent, really, they can make whatever kinds of arguments they want but this matter has clearly been stated here.

Vergilius
Team Member; Retired with Honors
 
Posts: 8270
Joined: Sun May 04, 2003 2:37 am
Location: Austin Texas, again
Timezone: US Central

PostAuthor: Titanium Dragon » Wed Apr 07, 2004 10:23 pm

Nighthawk4 wrote:The precedent idea is a good point. I have a kobold, and orc and a gnoll as characters - all of whom are friendly and other PCs accept them as such - despite the fact that NPC versions of these races would be Hostile and treated as such.


This is not entirely accurate. I have seen a number of nonhostile orcs/half orcs and kobolds. I have never seen a nonhostile gnoll. I have seen nonhostile lizardmen (DM controlled though :\ ), and there are whole countries of nonhostile giants, orcs, goblins, kobolds, lizardmen, ect. However, the Sereg are different - there are no nonhostile Sereg anywhere that I have seen, save the few who have been deconditioned. There is no nonhostile nation of Sereg - I'd imagine anyone who found one of their bases would be killed on sight.
Gilkin> ouch. how often do you roll a 20?
Cath> once every 20 rolls?
User avatar
Titanium Dragon
Sage
 
Posts: 2917
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2003 5:18 pm
Location: Corvallis, OR (GMT - 7)

PostAuthor: Vanor » Wed Apr 07, 2004 10:27 pm

Nighthawk4 wrote:despite the fact that NPC versions of these races would be Hostile and treated as such.


This also follows D&D rules (well sorta rules)... In the Monster manual and other books, monsters are listed with alignments like Alignment: Usually whatever.

This means that the majorty of these creatures are lawful evil, or chatoic good, or whatever...

Some however are listed as being Always whatever, typically these are things like demons, devils, clesterals, elementals, ect... Creatures which are by their very nature that alignment. You would never find a good Demon, or a evil hound arcon.

By the same token, Sereg fit in the Always catagory... Maybe not with alignment persay, but they are always bad, and always something to be feared and killed if possible.

Again this is a special case and applies to Sereg only.

If someone plays a Sereg, with the intention of hanging out at the Elf Gate, talking about politics, and current events... They are making a big mistake by picking Sereg as a race.
User avatar
Vanor
Team Member; Retired with Honors
 
Posts: 8386
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2002 7:46 pm
Location: Wisconsin (GMT -5)

PostAuthor: Quiz001 » Wed Apr 07, 2004 10:28 pm

Maybe for those wishing to play a Sereg, a small 'safe' area, just so they can get started out and feel the warmth of Sereg companionship?? :twisted:
Heh - I must admit, I admire anyone prepared to go through the pain of RPing one of these things - but I like the fact that the team's put it there as an option for anyone feeling 'ard enough.
THIS IS NOT A FREE HAIRCUT

Quiz001
Scholar of Fools
 
Posts: 479
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 10:18 am
Location: UK

PostAuthor: Malathyre » Wed Apr 07, 2004 10:34 pm

Vanor wrote:It will make it very hard for a Sereg to RP, no question about it. But again this is a special case. Anyone who wishes to play a Sereg, must do so knowing full well what that means, what will happen to them, and what being one requires.


Doesn't it also put some players, who do not play Sereg, into a position they would rather not be in? Folks who are in the 95% of KoS are relegated to basically having to kill other PC's on sight without any real interaction between them. That detracts from my roleplay, too, because now I am just offing another PC somewhat mindlessly, even though it is terribly IC to do so. That's not my idea of fun...if I'm going to fight someone, I like for at least there to be a history there with that PC, or some prior knowledge of IC events that they specifically took place in so I know why I am fighting them. Yes, I know, all sereg are undeniably evil and need to be destroyed by everyone, whether or not I have interacted with them. I dunno...seems like that's what hostile NPCs are for.

The heart of good CvC, imho, involves in character interaction as well as combat when appropriate. This feels like we are removing the interaction part completely, which is just as much a part of good rp as knowing when your PC should draw a weapon or cast a spell and attack. I could be making mountains out of molehills, here, too, and I do appreciate what everyone has posted so far. I also appreciate the different perspectives given, both from team and people playing sereg, I think I already have a much better understanding of how to think about this. However, I'm not just concerned with a sereg PC's ability to rp and have fun, I'm selfishly concerned for mine, too. Perhaps I am also selfish in thinking that there are enough targets out there for me to fire a bow or spell at when I want to, if there are PC's in the game, I'd like the interaction to be more in depth. *shrugs*

Keep it comin', good stuff!!! :)
"The stars predict tomorrow you'll wake up, do a bunch of stuff, and then go back to sleep!"--Your Horoscope for Today, Weird Al Yankovic
User avatar
Malathyre
Sage
 
Posts: 2081
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2003 8:47 pm
Location: Michigan, U.S.A. (GMT-5)

PostAuthor: Arena Helerin » Wed Apr 07, 2004 10:50 pm

If I may propose a few questions as well. Is it worth having a character possibility one which is so extremely limited in RP options? If we're trying to create situations where characters interact and RP with each other, are we shooting ourselves in the foot by allowing for Sereg PCs? If we have Sereg, why not have demon PCs or undead or anything else generally considered NPC ground? Just me thinking aloud.
User avatar
Arena Helerin
Apprentice Scholar
 
Posts: 801
Joined: Fri May 16, 2003 10:13 am
Location: My heart's in Texas, but my body's frozen up north.

PostAuthor: Jorio Alerian » Wed Apr 07, 2004 10:52 pm

I think Sereg PC's are like Vampire PC's, ghoul PC's, Mummy Lord PC's, Doom Lord PC's. etc... they, because of their background and nature, should be left as NPC's and DM controlled characters.

This creates a lot of problems with players taking too much liberty with their characters, the Sereg plotline, the history, and all the potential griefing issues that may come up.

My .02
User avatar
Jorio Alerian
Sage
 
Posts: 2288
Joined: Sun Dec 08, 2002 5:45 am
Location: Pennsylvania

PostAuthor: Emprod » Wed Apr 07, 2004 10:56 pm

Anyone playing a sereg (hopefully in a group) should know that their advantage is to hit first and hard.

Therefore I doubt they will be the ones doing any complaining...more likely the victims would.

Emprod
Sage
 
Posts: 2516
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2003 1:13 am
Location: Totally on Fifty's RAD shirt!

PostAuthor: Vichan Lyonsen » Wed Apr 07, 2004 11:04 pm

Ok my question is, is a 1st level Sereg even remotely hazardous, it certainly isnt an SD from the get go, so all these hit first and hide comments are moot.

Most 1st level PC's are barely a hazard to a crop rat let alone another PC. I guess I'm kind of fence ridden on this one, lets see how it pans out. Either way this is good to discuss now.
I've spent most of my money on beer, fast women, and fast cars. The rest I just wasted .
User avatar
Vichan Lyonsen
CCC
CCC
 
Posts: 3602
Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2003 5:23 am
Location: San Diego PST >GMT-8<
Timezone: pacific

PostAuthor: Arena Helerin » Wed Apr 07, 2004 11:14 pm

Okay, I guess the two previous posts raise another question for me. If the Sereg is nothing more then an assassin because their acceptability is VERY limited, where is the RP in that? Does that not lead to potential for grieving if the Sereg can only act out of ruthless murder?

Secondly, Vichan, true the Sereg character is level 1 and relatively harmless now. What about when it's level 10, 15, 20 or more? Will you have to retire the character for balance and RP sake? I don't fear the level 1 PC Sereg, but even one with a few levels under his/her belt is a bit problematic IMO.
User avatar
Arena Helerin
Apprentice Scholar
 
Posts: 801
Joined: Fri May 16, 2003 10:13 am
Location: My heart's in Texas, but my body's frozen up north.

PostAuthor: choraldances » Wed Apr 07, 2004 11:17 pm

Deal with it ICly.

If you play a Sereg, you will suffer the consequences just as if you play an elf and in Mikona. (To a greater degree of course)

If you are a PC, and you see a Sereg, whether it be NPC or PC, and you are sympathetic to this Sereg, you will also suffer the consequences ICly, no matter what it is.

As far as where a Sereg can hide, there will be a place where a Sereg can be safe.

So, let's deal with it ICly. Whether you're a Sereg or a PC meeting a Sereg.
User avatar
choraldances
Uber Posting Whor3
 
Posts: 13707
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 11:36 pm
Location: Stuck in what feels like Arborea GMT -7

PostAuthor: keikobad » Wed Apr 07, 2004 11:20 pm

Malathyre wrote:Doesn't it also put some players, who do not play Sereg, into a position they would rather not be in? Folks who are in the 95% of KoS are relegated to basically having to kill other PC's on sight without any real interaction between them.


Actually, the great majority of players usually run away when they see Sereg, unless they're in a large or powerful group. Why not treat PC Seregs the same? Knowing it's a lowbie, weak PC version would be kinda ooc for most people who aren't up on their Sereg knowledge.

You could play a bleeding heart fool who tries to conver them, or a neutral who just don't care, or a die-hard human hater who loves them.

But that's a good point about Repeated-kills. The basic CvC consideration of not killing someone over and over as they return to their corpse should be observed. Most folks don't want to hang around those Spite-ridden things anyway, good excuse to go somewhere else once they're dead.
User avatar
keikobad
Sage
 
Posts: 1983
Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2003 7:05 am

PostAuthor: Earandel Senessa » Wed Apr 07, 2004 11:26 pm

If a newbie can chip in two cents...
Emprod wrote:Anyone playing a sereg (hopefully in a group) should know that their advantage is to hit first and hard.

Therefore I doubt they will be the ones doing any complaining...more likely the victims would.


This is where I have issues. This is not CvC combat, simply because each and every player chooses to be a part of CvC or not. Yes, people choocing to play Sereg are choosing to participate in CvC, but if they are going to be true to the race, then their hatred of humans will cause them to attack humans on sight as well. And given that the exception being drawn up is that "because they're Sereg", they will be justified. This is Race vs Race fighting, and it affects all humans and T'Nanshi elves in existance. The only option I have to not participate is to reroll a new character.

They will have to strike hard and fast, killing opponents quickly. Since they are on the KoS list, their opponents (or potential opponents) consist of the rest of the Avlis players. What happens to the poor first day player trying to harvest wheat to gain that first thousand XP gets repeatedly killed by an opponent that they can not see? How many potentially great players will this drive off? Now, I understand that the people choocing to play Sereg now will not do that, but by making the race available to anyone, it becomes an invitation to PvP players.

The argument that Sereg have been around long enough has problems as well. Couldn't the same logic be applied to the war? That's been around long enough that anyone playing an elf or a human should be prepared to be attacked by the other side That is not the way it is, and for good reason. If the KoS on Sereg is going to be a one way street (they can be killed on sight but cannot kill on sight) then why would anyone choose to play one? Is this a race that is really needed for PCs?

Earandel Senessa
Lord of Blithering Idiots
 
Posts: 124
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 1:50 pm
Location: NH, USA (GMT -4)

Next

Return to The Avlis Project: Ask the Team

Who is online

Registered users: Bing [Bot], galen_macbyrne, Google [Bot]