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PostAuthor: Sarrena » Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:29 pm

Question on Paladins, is it only Paladin's native to Avlis? I'm assuming it is.
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PostAuthor: KinX » Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:37 am

Sarrena wrote:Question on Paladins, is it only Paladin's native to Avlis? I'm assuming it is.


what are you talking about?
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PostAuthor: Aloro » Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:41 am

Sarrena wrote:Question on Paladins, is it only Paladin's native to Avlis? I'm assuming it is.


Sorry, could you rephrase the question? :)

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PostAuthor: Deider » Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:41 am

Sarrena wrote:Question on Paladins, is it only Paladin's native to Avlis? I'm assuming it is.


Yes, only paladins native to Avlis have chronic halitosis.

Next question?
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PostAuthor: Vroshgrak » Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:46 am

what (s)he means is.

Only paladins native to avlis have to worship gorethar. If Polan my paladin from rockhome came to avlis, he'd be free to worship Kagyar. Despite Kagyar not existing in Avlis.
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PostAuthor: Vichan Lyonsen » Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:47 am

Deider wrote:
Sarrena wrote:Question on Paladins, is it only Paladin's native to Avlis? I'm assuming it is.


Yes, only paladins native to Avlis have chronic halitosis.

Next question?


This is true, the non-natives from CoPaP worlds are terminally flatulent.
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PostAuthor: Deider » Tue Apr 06, 2004 1:02 am

Vroshgrak wrote:what (s)he means is.

Only paladins native to avlis have to worship gorethar. If Polan my paladin from rockhome came to avlis, he'd be free to worship Kagyar. Despite Kagyar not existing in Avlis.


My understanding of the issue is this - if Polan came from Mystara to Avlis, he'd still be free to worship Kagyar by his usual rituals ("every day I must face the South six times and bow to Kagyar", "every day I must help an old lady across the street, by Kagyar's kneecaps!").

But during his whole time on Avlis Polan is getting his spells and holy powers from Gorethar. Because Kagyar has no influence here.

Why would Gorethar grant a paladin who does not worship him any powers and spells? Because I'd assume all of the LG gods have sort of gentleman's agreement to back up each other's holy warriors. That way when they're on some other plane fighting evil they won't be diminished in power any. I can just imagine the gods of LG chillin' in the Seven Heavens, playing bridge and talking about how to smite Maleki, Cyric and Bane.

Of course, I could be wrong here.
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PostAuthor: Sarrena » Tue Apr 06, 2004 1:11 am

What about a Paladin to an existing Avlasian god, on another plain? Say a Paladin of [insert goody avlis god here, Dru'El], that came from Hala.
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PostAuthor: Jordicus » Tue Apr 06, 2004 1:35 am

Sarrena wrote:What about a Paladin to an existing Avlasian god, on another plain? Say a Paladin of [insert goody avlis god here, Dru'El], that came from Hala.


there can be no Paladins of Dru'El. A Paladin by nature must worship Gorethar on Avlis. Gorethar is the only LG Avlisian diety
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PostAuthor: Vergilius » Tue Apr 06, 2004 1:38 am

Jordicus wrote:
Sarrena wrote:What about a Paladin to an existing Avlasian god, on another plain? Say a Paladin of [insert goody avlis god here, Dru'El], that came from Hala.


there can be no Paladins of Dru'El. A Paladin by nature must worship Gorethar on Avlis. Gorethar is the only LG Avlisian diety

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PostAuthor: Deider » Tue Apr 06, 2004 1:39 am

Sarrena wrote:What about a Paladin to an existing Avlasian god, on another plain? Say a Paladin of [insert goody avlis god here, Dru'El], that came from Hala.


There are Avengers of Dru'El. Dru'El has no paladins.

Remember, as far as Avlis goes the paladin class is almost like a PrC in that it is the holy warrior class for Gorethar. To be a paladin in Avlis you MUST be LG and you MUST worship Gorethar.

My personal feeling is that if you are a holy warrior of your deity then you would have that deity's alignment. So there would never be paladins of a non-LG deity. Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I'm still of the school of thought that paladins are always LG. If you want to be a different alignment then that puts you into a different class or character build. LG is hard-coded into paladinhood, so to speak.

To go back to your example, IIRC Hala is a CG plane (I think Chass or Flakey could answer this part better than I, but I'm gonna give it a shot). Which means only CG deities live there. AFAIK there are four Avlissian CG deities: Dru'El, Corellon Larethian (FR god of elves), Mishlekh (goddess of wine), and Balgar (god of wemics). Personally I don't see Mishlekh as having paladins - what would they crusade for, the lifting of nonexistent prohibition laws? Would they smite teetotalers? I also don't see paladins fitting in with what we know of Avlissian wemics.

The short answer: paladins are Gorethar's bizzitches. No other Avlis deity would grant them powers, no matter what plane they came from. Again, I could be wrong.

Now here comes the point where someone will bring up the fact that worshippers of a deity can have an alignment one step away from that of their deity. That is true for lay worshippers, or laymen. Paladins are far from laymen - they get power directly from their deity.

If you want to play an LG warrior who's extremely devout towards Dru'El or another god that's not LG, I'd play a fighter.

Either way, I think any paladin who came to Avlis who claimed to worship a different Avlissian god than Gorethar would get at the least a stern talking-to from every Goretharian (PC or NPC) they came across, and at worst an ass-whupping for heresy.
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PostAuthor: Deider » Tue Apr 06, 2004 1:40 am

Damn, Jordi & Verg beat me to it, and they were much more succinct :)
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PostAuthor: Vergilius » Tue Apr 06, 2004 1:43 am

Deider wrote:Damn, Jordi & Verg beat me to it, and they were much more succinct :)


actually, my post was to highlight precisely that Jordicus' comment, while true for Avlis, did not in fact answer the question that had been asked.

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PostAuthor: Vergilius » Tue Apr 06, 2004 1:52 am

Maybe I'd better rephrase the question as I see it:

Its hypothetical entirely, which means it has to be answered as a hypothetical and not as a specifid question.

Suppose that a player rolls up a Paladin. He does this on another CoPaP Server where one of the few gods that overlaps servers has some powers. On this other world, this god has paladins that follow him. Suppose this player were to bring his character to Avlis. Would he then be a Paladin to god XXX instead of Gorethar or would he have to switch and worship Gorethar?

that is the backbone of the question as I see it. I see two issues with the question, neither of which I feel confident "answering" but both of which I feel confident "addressing".

First the issue of relevance: Does there actually exist on another plane/copap world, an Avlissan God that allows for Paladins? I don't know the answer to that question, but I do know the vast majority of the Avlissan gods are very native, which means the value of the question and the relevance of its answer to any other discussion may be infinitely low.

Second, there is the issue of switchinging worlds/deitic structure. My personal opinion is that any Paladin from another world who spent a lot of time on Avlis would of necessity become ingrained in this world. Other gods do not empower Paladin's on Avlis, Gorethar does. So he would either find himself drawn to Gorethar or he would abandon the Paladin's path for something else.

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PostAuthor: Titanium Dragon » Tue Apr 06, 2004 2:08 am

I thought that they had implemented scripts that made it so if your diety field wasn't right against your alignment you didn't get to cast your spells? Or am I dreaming?
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PostAuthor: Jordicus » Tue Apr 06, 2004 2:19 am

Titanium Dragon wrote:I thought that they had implemented scripts that made it so if your diety field wasn't right against your alignment you didn't get to cast your spells? Or am I dreaming?


still in process, not implemented yet
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PostAuthor: Vian » Tue Apr 06, 2004 2:32 am

All your Paladins R belong to me!!!
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PostAuthor: Dane Bramage » Tue Apr 06, 2004 3:42 am

Jordicus wrote:
Titanium Dragon wrote:I thought that they had implemented scripts that made it so if your diety field wasn't right against your alignment you didn't get to cast your spells? Or am I dreaming?


still in process, not implemented yet


Makes sense, but kind of a shame. Probably won't see any Palidins come here from other CoPaP servers. That may or may not be a bad thing tho :lol:

What seems to be the larger question is how to RP a Palidin from another world here in Avlis. I like Deider's explination. Nice, simple, works... for the short term. As long as they are server hoping, I don't see any harm in letting them have their special abilities, but I think if that character moved here and stayed for an extended period, then he would either have to convert or stop taking levels in Palidin.

Dane.

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PostAuthor: Deider » Tue Apr 06, 2004 4:17 am

Vergilius wrote:First the issue of relevance: Does there actually exist on another plane/copap world, an Avlissan God that allows for Paladins?


No. I know a lot of the CoPaP servers that are already linked are still under development, but I have yet to see a temple or shrine to an Avlis god on any of them. And I doubt we will see one, just as you won't find shrines to non-Avlis gods on Avlis. The only exceptions are the 'foreign' greater gods like Corellon, Clangeddin, and Ptah, which are allowed by the Nine Greater Gods of Avlis to have a presence in this world.

TD wrote:I thought that they had implemented scripts that made it so if your diety field wasn't right against your alignment you didn't get to cast your spells?


There is a script in development that will do this. It may also eventually work such that priests of 'foreign' gods would not get any spells over 2nd level, or any spells at all, and it may become CoPaP wide. This will also probably cover paladin and ranger spells, but I don't think the paladin's special abilities will be affected, hence my explanation in the post I made above.

The fact that paladins of Avlis must worship Gorethar is a rule. By extension one can and probably should assume that other Avlis gods would not grant paladinhood to anyone, no matter where they are.

But this also presents an interesting RP opportunity, that of 'foreign' paladins coming to Avlis. Vrosh already mentioned Kagyar, and when Phlan/Moonsea links there is the chance of Tyr.
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PostAuthor: Aloro » Tue Apr 06, 2004 4:46 am

Deider wrote:To go back to your example, IIRC Hala is a CG plane (I think Chass or Flakey could answer this part better than I, but I'm gonna give it a shot).


Ysgard is CG with Neutral tendencies. It lies between Arborea and Limbo. (Yes, I have too many fucking ranks in Knowledge: Planes.)

That gnome wrote:Which means only CG deities live there. AFAIK there are four Avlissian CG deities: Dru'El, Corellon Larethian (FR god of elves), Mishlekh (goddess of wine), and Balgar (god of wemics).


You forgot Mishlekh's boytoy, dammit. All FIVE of them live in Arborea, too.

* mutters "no respect, I get no respect" in his best Rodney Dangerfield voice *

As Nob points out below, of the Avlissian Gods, only Andrinor lives in Ysgard.

***

Paladins on Avlis ALL get their powers from Gorethar, and all must worship him by definition.

If O'Ma were granted power on another Prime Material Plane besides Avlis (which is highly doubtful), and if that plane did not have rules regarding which gods Paladins had to worship or which alignment divine spellcasters must be in relation to their gods, then in theory a Paladin from that place could worship O'Ma. However, when he arrived in Avlis, this paladin would find that Gorethar, not O'Ma, answered his prayers here, and would have to change religions. O'Ma does not grant prayers to, nor is worshipped by Paladins in Avlis. But this is really a bizarre and frankly implausible exercise in "what if". It doesn't exist now and almost certainly never will.

Dru'El couldn't have Paladins ANYWHERE. His worshippers must be CG or NG. All Paladins in 3rd Ed are LG. Dru'El has Avengers, which are to him as Paladins are to Gorethar.

That gnome who's gonna be denied HEALING for a while wrote:It may also eventually work such that priests of 'foreign' gods would not get any spells over 2nd level, or any spells at all, and it may become CoPaP wide.


When we do implement the divine spell failure system, any caster of divine magics who 1) does not worship an Avlissian god or 2) does not meet the alignment restrictions for a divine caster of that god will not be able to cast spells greater than 3rd level. Spells of 0-3rd levels can be drawn from the general pantheon of a plane, so someone worshipping a non-native god, an atheist, or an excommunicated cleric could still cast those spells.

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Last edited by Aloro on Tue Apr 06, 2004 4:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostAuthor: Nob » Tue Apr 06, 2004 4:50 am

Deider wrote:
Sarrena wrote:What about a Paladin to an existing Avlasian god, on another plain? Say a Paladin of [insert goody avlis god here, Dru'El], that came from Hala.

To go back to your example, IIRC Hala is a CG plane (I think Chass or Flakey could answer this part better than I, but I'm gonna give it a shot). Which means only CG deities live there. AFAIK there are four Avlissian CG deities: Dru'El, Corellon Larethian (FR god of elves), Mishlekh (goddess of wine), and Balgar (god of wemics). Personally I don't see Mishlekh as having paladins - what would they crusade for, the lifting of nonexistent prohibition laws? Would they smite teetotalers? I also don't see paladins fitting in with what we know of Avlissian wemics.


Overall, isn't the only Avlisian deity(to date) that lives in Ysgard, Andrinor?(Campaign notes, epilogue mentioned Andrinor's new home being Ysgard, rather than limbo)

So, it really wouldn't matter if someone were from Hala, they wouldn't be a paladin of one of the Avlisian CG gods.(Besides, Hala, being good? HA! :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:)
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PostAuthor: Sarrena » Tue Apr 06, 2004 5:07 am

What about Dre'Ana then? as a God she has followers mostly ranging from LG to CG, not to mention LN to CN. Why couldn't she have Paladins?
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PostAuthor: Xoc » Tue Apr 06, 2004 5:19 am

what I found:

Each of the nine gods represents one of the nine alignments in DnD, we will not be going into the discussion of comparative ethos or definition of Law vs Chaos or Good Vs. Evil. Those have been covered in great depth elsewhere. Also, the nine greater gods are the only gods to have a holy warrior class, of these all are a Prestige class with the exception of the Paladin (Gorethar) , though mentioned here they will be covered in greater depth elsewhere.

This was in the ooc section on the bottom of this page:
http://www.avlis.org/portal.php?getpage=volume2

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PostAuthor: Vergilius » Tue Apr 06, 2004 5:25 am

Sarrena wrote:What about Dre'Ana then? as a God she has followers mostly ranging from LG to CG, not to mention LN to CN. Why couldn't she have Paladins?


First, she would have to have some dominence on another plain, which is gonna be highly doubtful, then theoretically you couuld have a paladin to DreAna while on that other plain/world whatever. However, upon arriving on Avlis, it is as Aloro states, it would be Gorethar answering the paladin's prayers.

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PostAuthor: Orleron » Tue Apr 06, 2004 6:57 am

In addition to all the answers above, let me clarify.

When you go to another world or planet, you do not have contact with your native gods unless they have temples and worshipers where you are travelling to. This basically means that if you worship Gorethar, and you go to FR, you are screwed for spells. Conversely, if you worship a LG god of FR and you come to Avlis, you are also screwed spells.

There are two exceptions to this rule, and I'm not making this up. It's from Spelljammer rules 2nd Edition:

1) You can still cast spells under 2nd level no matter what world you go to.

2) Paladin/holy warrior abilities are all considered to be 2nd level for the purposes of this rule.


So,

Example 1:

Gorethar paladin goes to FR. ---> He can no longer cast any cleric spells above 2nd level... cure serious wounds is a no go. However, he can still use his paladin abilities, i.e. detect evil, smite evil, lay hands, etc.



Example 2:

FR paladin goes to Avlis ---> He can no longer cast any cleric spells above 2nd level... cure serious wounds is a no go. However, he can still use his paladin abilities, i.e. detect evil, smite evil, lay hands, etc.


So yeah, a paladin from another CoPaP world could technically come over here and do that kind of thing. I'd like to see how OoG deals with that though. Might not be pretty. The above rules basically apply to all holy warrior classes on Avlis.
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