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A more clear definition of griefing?

Forum for posing direct questions to the Avlis Team. Purpose is to facilitate Team/Player communication.

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PostAuthor: Malathyre » Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:04 pm

Couple of things:

@Dralix: talking it over with someone after you feel you have been griefed probably isn't a good idea. I've never been griefed on Avlis, never accused anyone of griefing, and I hope I never do. In general, I prefer to resolve my issues with other people directly, talking about it with them privately before making any further complaints/inquiries. However, I don't feel this is a good idea for most griefing situations, simply because it is not our place as players to judge whether or not someone was griefing, that is the team's job...all we can do is report suspected griefing incidents. Besides, I would guess that most people would take a griefing claim more seriously coming from the team, and are less likely to respond in an emotional fashion. Talking it over with the person would be my personal favorite option, but I don't necessarily think it is the best idea...I'd love to hear the team's thoughts on this, though, too.

@stoertebeker: Posting in a public or private forum about griefing is an excellent way to get flamed and get people's blood riled. My own personal feeling is that this is the worst way you could handle a griefing incident, though I could certainly understand the need to rant and vent a bit if you were griefed. Hell, posting positive comments in rants and raves is a pretty good way to get flamed somedays. For the most part, though, I see no reason to make these incidents public...only bad things would come from that.
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PostAuthor: Vergilius » Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:12 pm

Malathyre wrote:Couple of things:

@Dralix: talking it over with someone after you feel you have been griefed probably isn't a good idea. I've never been griefed on Avlis, never accused anyone of griefing, and I hope I never do. In general, I prefer to resolve my issues with other people directly, talking about it with them privately before making any further complaints/inquiries. However, I don't feel this is a good idea for most griefing situations, simply because it is not our place as players to judge whether or not someone was griefing, that is the team's job...all we can do is report suspected griefing incidents. Besides, I would guess that most people would take a griefing claim more seriously coming from the team, and are less likely to respond in an emotional fashion. Talking it over with the person would be my personal favorite option, but I don't necessarily think it is the best idea...I'd love to hear the team's thoughts on this, though, too.


Well, you have a point. I don't get riled up too easily, other people blow their top. If you're the kind of person that blows your top over incidents, you need to cool down first, send a PM to the person later, otherwise you rish being the one who is griefing. On the other hand, if you are remaining cool, the point of sending Tells is clarity and mutual understanding, not to determine whether someone is griefing or not. Trust thrives on good communication. If we tell people not to communicate with one another, then we are not allowing any trust to build or thrive.

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PostAuthor: Dralix » Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:13 pm

Malathyre, I understand what you are saying and agree that it is ultimately the team's call as to whether griefing has occured, if it makes it that far.

The reason I suggest talking it over first is to clear up any misconceived griefing incidents before it gets that far, and before people get all pissed off at each other.

Now if someone camps my corpse and kills me or raise kills me I'm going to the team.

But if say Dralix gets whacked out in T'Nanshi while invisible and disguised, by a PC he has never met, it might be a good idea to send a tell asking if they had good IC intelligence instead of just assuming use of floaty name and crying foul. I wouldn't expect to be told what the IC knowledge was, but just knowing that there was some would mean I was cool with everything.

Probably not the best example, but I think you get what I'm going for with this ...

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PostAuthor: Starslayer_D » Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:18 pm

aye.. talking things out immediately after may be the sane things, but if someone feels griefed allready, he sure will not be calm at the moment.

Personally, I would rather log off, vent steam somewhere, come back, and hope nothing I said between event and talking it over is taken as a *word of god, chissled into stone*.

Trust me, I am talking from experience there.

Exspecting people to be completely rational and level after you just killed/ambushed/looted them is thinking good of your average human being, but clashes with realiy and emotions.

But I hope that people understand eg. I have to blow steam somewhere... and get a grip on the situation, too. IRC is neat for this: large audience, quick response, adn at least some are willing to discuss it with oyu without making jerky responses.. *points at no one, but a comment yesterday made me log off*
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PostAuthor: Malathyre » Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:21 pm

Yeah, I get where you are going with this, Dralix, and you too, Verg....I guess my point was to discourage the, "You just griefed me, you heartless SOB! You've ruined my life!" type-TELLs, and the equally emotional response you're likely to get from a TELL like this... :roll: Asking a person why they did what they did is probably a good idea if you don't understand it.

As an example: say I was killing Druids of Verossa in the forest, and out of nowhere pops a PC and kills me... I might think that was griefing unless I asked him, "Um, ok, so why did I waxed there?" response: "Well, I'm a druid of Verossa myself, and you were killing my friends." Me again: "LOL, ok, fair enough...try not to get my blood on your boots :)"

That would be a useful conversation, definitely.
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Re: A more clear definition of griefing?

PostAuthor: Khaelindra » Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:22 pm

Vergilius wrote:
Lafferty wrote:
Sarmanos wrote:1) Grief-style playing, or griefing, is illegal. Griefing is defined by any style of play that makes the person playing a character feel genuine distress and anger through disruption of their gaming session.


I'd make it to:

1) Grief-style playing, or griefing, is illegal. Griefing is defined by any style of out of character play that makes the person playing a character feel genuine distress and anger through disruption of their gaming session.
In character behaviour and playing style may well grief another character. If played correctly this is not covered by this rule




I find that definition inadequate. Simply having an IC reason to do something just doesn't cut it.






The concern can be covered by exchanging

1) Grief-style playing, or griefing, is illegal. Griefing is defined by any style of out of character play that makes the person playing a character feel genuine distress and anger through disruption of their gaming session.
In character behaviour and playing style may well grief another character. If played correctly this is not covered by this rule



by

1) Grief-style playing, or griefing, is illegal. Griefing is defined by any style of play that makes the person playing a character feel genuine distress and anger through disruption of their gaming session.
In character behaviour and playing style may well grief another character. If played correctly this is not covered by this rule



Not only OOC play, but ANY play that causes genuine and unreasonable distress to the player of another character. See the ban on serial killers, no matter how IC it is.
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PostAuthor: FunkOdyssey » Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:38 pm

talking it over with someone after you feel you have been griefed probably isn't a good idea.


I feel entirely the opposite. I think that communication between the players involved is the very best way to handle a potential griefing situation. There are so many times that things can be worked out through tells or PM's, that avenue should always be explored first.

For example, there was an incident where the character of a good friend of mine killed another character under questionable circumstances. The player of the victim character was certain he had been griefed, and fired off a note to the team in anger, complaining about it. Later on, some communication took place between the players, and the victim now viewed the incident in a different light. He conceded that it made good sense and that he was not a griefing victim.

Too late. By now the "offending player" was in vault jail, and so enraged at the whole thing that he left Avlis for good. Probably my favorite Avlis personality of all time, lost to a premature griefing complaint.

Therefore, I will not be convinced that communication is not the best policy. Talk to your fellow player, tell them how you feel, be civil and respectful. IF that fails, THEN explore other options.

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PostAuthor: Dralix » Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:40 pm

Malathyre wrote:I guess my point was to discourage the, "You just griefed me, you heartless SOB! You've ruined my life!" type-TELLs, and the equally emotional response you're likely to get from a TELL like this... :roll:


That is definately not the type of discussion I had in mind.

Malathyre wrote:As an example: say I was killing Druids of Verossa in the forest, and out of nowhere pops a PC and kills me... I might think that was griefing unless I asked him, "Um, ok, so why did I waxed there?" response: "Well, I'm a druid of Verossa myself, and you were killing my friends." Me again: "LOL, ok, fair enough...try not to get my blood on your boots :)"


That is. :)

But as Starslayer says, each of us has our own emotions to deal with. If we all could try to show some respect to each other, as Verg has pointed out, and cool down if necessary, then we should be able to discuss things civilly with each other. For the most part, we are all reasonable adults here, right?

Except me of course. I'm downright childish. ;-)

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PostAuthor: Vanor » Mon Feb 23, 2004 5:49 pm

Greifing is in the eye of the beholder. What one person considers greifing, another might not. A simple rule of thumb to follow, is ask yourself, will the other person enjoy what is about to happen. Of course you can never truly answer that, even for someone you know fairly well. But it's a good starting point.

I don't think we'll put a more narow deffention of greifing up then we already have. Orleron put some examples up somewhere around here before.

Saying that any action that is IC, is allowed, is completely untrue. We the staff will do what ever we feel is nesicary to improve the Avlis experance for the player base as a whole.

One person might feel that playing a serrial killer might be fun, but everyone else would find it quite unejoyable. So we simply don't allow people to go on killing spree's simply because they're insane. No matter how IC that might be.

Another simple guildeline for greifing, IMO is this. A PC should never question OOC at least why they were just killed. There maybe and most likely are PC's, maybe even most PC's who might become the enemy of another group and IC at least not understand why. They might think IC "Why would so and so hate me for doing that?" But OOC they do know why.

If a PC is killed by someone, and truly has no idea why, then there's a decent chance the action wasn't appoprate. That idea is one of the key concepts behind CvC combat on Avlis. That there is a reason for doing what you are doing. That your PC has reason to want to see the other PC dead.

Talking it out is always a good thing to do IMO. But then again the other person might be so pissed off at that time, that talking about it just won't work. In either case, I'd strongly sugest that if you feel you have been greifed, wait at least a day before sending in the email. Allow yourself time to calm down and make sure you really do feel like you've been greifed.

But the bottom line is this, if you feel you have been greifed, tell the team and let us deal with it.

If you are about to engage someone in CvC combat, stop and ask yourself, if this will be fun for the other person, and if they will know why it's going on. If you feel either case is untrue, then don't do it.
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PostAuthor: Vanor » Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:03 pm

Here's the thread I mentioned. It talks about army based PC's but does in fact apply to most everyone. If not the letter of the rules, the spirt anyway.

http://www.avlis.org/viewtopic.php?t=17506
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PostAuthor: Vergilius » Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:27 pm

FunkOdyssey wrote:For example, there was an incident where the character of a good friend of mine killed another character under questionable circumstances. The player of the victim character was certain he had been griefed, and fired off a note to the team in anger, complaining about it. Later on, some communication took place between the players, and the victim now viewed the incident in a different light. He conceded that it made good sense and that he was not a griefing victim.

Too late. By now the "offending player" was in vault jail, and so enraged at the whole thing that he left Avlis for good. Probably my favorite Avlis personality of all time, lost to a premature griefing complaint.


Thats very sad. Its definitely the kind of thing we want to avoid. What if anything can or is done normally when the team receives an email, to protect the accused from complaints that are later rescinded or accusations that aren't fully understood?

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PostAuthor: WrathOG777 » Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:33 pm

To feel comfortable with our actions, I at least, need a list like that, that applys to everyone, not just the army. and a list with no maybes. A list with some examples of 'this definately is griefing' and 'this definately is not'

I am tired of feeling like folks are standing over people with a big stick talking about banning folks but refuseing to say for what.

I need more statements like, "donot worry, if you do this or that, but not this or that then everything is going to be ok"

Instead I am seeing a lot of, "tread lightly or you get a banning."

The last posts of yours vanor gave me feeling number two. Sketchy, "big brother is watching you" posts make me scared. It said to me, we like rules that have no definition, so instead of players making informed decisions, we can just throw the book at anyone that someone complains about. I cannot read minds, but I know for a fact that not everyone thinks about the consequences of their IC actions. Then regaurdless of how great of a reason someone else has for teaching that character a lesson those same folks are going to be clueless. Then you say, it is the other persons fault for the whiner being ignorant, they must have been going intentionaly out of their way to grief that player?

I need to have some rules that I can follow, and be sure, no matter how bad some whiner crys about what has happened, that I did the right thing.

I also need rules put up because I have been corpse camped and rez raped on Avlis. These people honestly did not know any better. If the Avlis team is unwilling to define some obvious instances of what is griefing and what is not then folks are not going to know.
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PostAuthor: FunkOdyssey » Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:38 pm

I was going to quote here and there with some comments, but I'll save some time and just say that I agree wholeheartedly with everything Wrath just said.
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PostAuthor: Heronimous Fox » Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:53 pm

Wrath

I probably know about 1% of your character action, and no one has ever bad mouthed you, or your colleagues for what you develope as a plot line. In fact most of the players i talk to admire you and yours for the way you play these plots out and wish i was half as good at it. Sure we get up in arms and demand 'Justice' but IC.

*Cleans off nose*

But I think you are slightly askew in your interpretation of Vanors words though which i read slightly differently. There are plenty of definitions around and rules, part of the problem is new players who do not read the boards or newBs guide. So go in blind and this then leads to most of the problems we see.

Some of the plot lines that have gone wrong have only wrong in the aftermath. In some peoples eyes they could have been developed into a bloody good plot line like the current xxxx xxxxxx xx x xxxx one. The fairy garden incident could have gone a completely different route, maybe to the benefit of M'Chek.

But in one area i do agree, it is a grey area but i think enforcing more rigid rules on this may make it worse.

Dont know where this is going, its gibberish, Wrath i love you, take me to your temple.
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PostAuthor: Vanor » Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:55 pm

WrathOG777 wrote:I am tired of feeling like folks are standing over people with a big stick talking about banning folks but refuseing to say for what.


Here seems to be one of the major missconceptions about this whole issue. A single case of greifing, unless very extream will not get you banned.

As for the example Funk stated, I don't remember that, but it seems sort of odd, the Staff here does not take instant action. We have in every case that I can think of took time to look over a situation before we act. Unless the person in question was already on their last legs here...

I need more statements like, "donot worry, if you do this or that, but not this or that then everything is going to be ok"


There are examples of what would deffently be seen as unacceptable behavor. Being rez'ed then killed again, then rez'ed then killed. Clearly unacceptable. Sticking around near someone's corpse to kill them again, also not allowed. Those do not apply to just Army based PC's as I stated, but more or less to everyone.

It said to me, we like rules that have no definition, so instead of players making informed decisions, we can just throw the book at anyone that someone complains about.


It's not that we like rules with no defintion, it's just that we can't lay out exact cases of what is or isn't acceptable. If we were to do that, then someone could use them to greif but claim to have done nothing wrong.

For example, lets say we make the statement that if a PC does X, Y and Z, then they can be killed without it being considered greifing. So I being a real greifer, someone who gets off on ruining the fun of other people. Always look out for PC's who do x, y, and z, so I can kill them. Not because it's IC to do so, but because it's an excuse for me to PK.

Ignorance is generally not an excuse here. We've stated that clearly already. Your first warning is the rules posted here, second may very well end up being sent to the vault jail.

But that does not mean that every time we get a complaint about greifing we jump on who ever did it, and ban or vault jail them the same day. In fact I'd say that our common responce is for the PC's to deal with it IC.
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PostAuthor: Vergilius » Mon Feb 23, 2004 8:07 pm

To me its 2 things really: Actions and attitude, and they go together in part.

By actions: I mean what your character actually does. This is largely how IC or OOC the action is. For example, it can hardly be called IC to stand over someone's corpse only to kill them again when they return. Usually, I wouldn't report someone for griefing on the basis of action alone unless it were this point blank obvious.

By attutide, I mean how the player and I would dialogue about the dispute. In this case, its not the substance that counts, its the attitude. The substantive event could be perfectly IC, which wouldn't bother me in the least, but if the player is a jerk, that will bother me. As I said before, respect is the operative word.

Honestly thats about as clear as I'll make it.

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PostAuthor: FunkOdyssey » Mon Feb 23, 2004 8:17 pm

As for the example Funk stated, I don't remember that, but it seems sort of odd, the Staff here does not take instant action. We have in every case that I can think of took time to look over a situation before we act. Unless the person in question was already on their last legs here...


That was not the first incident for this offending player, yet they were not on their last legs either. The week in vault jail was his first actual punishment.

The focus of my criticism in that example is meant to be on the "victim" player, not on the way the team handled it.
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PostAuthor: Vanor » Mon Feb 23, 2004 8:30 pm

FunkOdyssey wrote:The focus of my criticism in that example is meant to be on the "victim" player, not on the way the team handled it.


I understand and agree. People should really wait at least 24 hours before sending something like that to the staff.

The last posts of yours vanor gave me feeling number two. Sketchy, "big brother is watching you" posts make me scared. It said to me, we like rules that have no definition, so instead of players making informed decisions, we can just throw the book at anyone that someone complains about.


Wanted to address this point directly.

This is all about trusting the staff to do what is right. If you think we're all out to get you, won't listen to both sides of a issue, will throw the book at someone simply because someone else claims something. That says you don't trust the staff to do it's job.

If you don't trust us to deal with issues like this, the right way, then how can you trust us to DM fairly or anything else? All the staff here, do this for free. We put in a lot of time and effort to make Avlis what it now is. That alone should earn us the trust of the players here. If we did all that, why would we throw it away by jumping off half cocked as soon as we got a email about someone doing something?

In fact we've never jumped off half or even 3/4th cocked about anything. We give people lots of chances to screw themseleves over here.
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PostAuthor: Sarmanos » Mon Feb 23, 2004 8:58 pm

Well I am going to try to shift the topic to another direction with this question.

What things do you consider to be griefing and why?
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PostAuthor: Pharik » Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:07 pm

I was reading an article about MMORPG addiction earlier - http://www.nickyee.com/hub/home.html - and ended up at some forums where an ex-EQ player had this to say about CvC.

This is an aspect of online games that I feel developers have a hard time getting a handle on. One of the things about direct competition is that there is a great urge to whine and complain, or make excuses if you feel you are losing. I think developers tend to overreact to how vocally players complain when their experience is directly affected by other players, and focus on (CvM) content, which they have more control over than player actions.

This, I feel, is unfortunate, because leveling up in Qeynos Catacombs on a (non-PvP) server is never going to be as satisfying to me as it was to level up in spite of that (PvPer). When developers understand this, in light of what a persistent state world is, they will be able to set aside ridiculous notions such as "play nice rules."


For anyone interested the whole post can be read here - http://www.sigilgames.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=147

I think the above opinion is reflected quite well in the Avlis community and Dm's/dev's and players alike deserve a huge pat on the back for it.

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PostAuthor: Deider » Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:35 pm

Just wanted to say one thing.

I hope that you players can trust me. At least, I hope those players who have interacted with me know that I'm not here to harass you, or give you a hard time, or stab you in the back. Challenge you? Yes. Jack your characters up? Sometimes, when those tough situations arise. But deceive you? Not you. I'll throw red herrings at your characters until you've got scale imprints on your cheeks, but I won't deceive you as players.

That said, I'm the same as every other team member. We're not out to get you. We hate disciplining people. When I log on I want to watch people RP, not watch to see if they're logging to regain spells, or chatting OOC, or camping spawns. Actually, I want to log in, get my DM on, and then log out. Actually, I don't want to log out. But there's this pesky thing call my J-O-B...

Anyway, we're not Big Brother. We're not lurking behind you at every corner. Well, we are, but we're there to cookie you for good RP.

In the eight or so months I've been a team member I've yet to see any sort of witch hunt take place when someone was accused of griefing. What I have seen is a dedicated staff look into the incidents seriously and diligently. Because while we're here to have fun, we also sometimes have to do things to ensure that fun is maintained for all.

Game on!
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PostAuthor: WrathOG777 » Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:47 pm

I cannot survive without this direct competition. The game becomes meaningless and empty. Avlis is advertized as a CvC world. A lot of us truely enjoy matching wits with others. I could mash NPCs and build up a score card all day, but that would bring me little joy. Not all conflict leads to fights. In fact the vast majority of my conflicts have come to non-combative resolution, and the vast majority of my combats have been friendly instead of conflicts. I go out of my way to make sure this is the case. I still need these conflicts. It is what gives Avlis life. The DMs are not on all the time, they cannot be with everyone when they are. Players provide the majority of content here. The multifaced world is built to cultivate this inter-philisophical friction that leads to various conflicts.

Plots without conflict are just as meaningless and empty as spending hours drooling on the keyboard mashing any other NPC. That is what makes the well thought out diverse quests DMs run so much fun. Each player's character fills a role, those roles interact, sometimes to cooperate, sometimes to conflict.

err.. maybe that did not have anything to do with anything but that is what i was just thinking so I figured I would share.
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PostAuthor: Vanor » Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:57 pm

WrathOG777 wrote:Avlis is advertized as a CvC world.


A small nitpick. Avlis is not advertized as a CvC world, but rather that we allow for CvC conflect.

In fact the vast majority of my conflicts have come to non-combative resolution, and the vast majority of my combats have been friendly instead of conflicts. I go out of my way to make sure this is the case.


Then you have nothing to worry about, because you do it the right way. Which is something we do keep in mind when dealing with issues like this. We consider the history of the player in question, when we look at something.

I think all the staff here welcome CvC conflect in one form or another. It adds a lot of spice to the world of Avlis, and makes it more real. But at the same time, we have to consider what is the most fun for the most people. We have to consider that some people want nothing to do with CvC conflect. We also have to consider that there may be people here who would take some rule, find a loophole and use that to justify greifing someone else.

So the bottom line IMO anyway, and not by any means the end of this discussion... If you always keep the idea of "will this be fun for the other person" in mind, then you aren't really at risk of getting into trouble with us. Sure you may end up doing something that really does upset the other person, but intent means a lot as well as actions.
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PostAuthor: marauder » Tue Feb 24, 2004 10:02 am

I think the last two posts bring up a good point: that CvsC does not always mean combat. CvsC IS a required part of Avlis. Either by competing against others in a quest or to solve a puzzle first it is this "conflict" that makes the game fun.

In PnP we always have a DM to provide the conflist, however in a world this size there cant always be a DM. You have two choices then...NPC's or other characters.

I recommend a good mix of both, however both are required to have a world as rich as this one.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

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PostAuthor: Alexandru Stanicu » Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:45 am

going well so far...

I want to take time to point out that we (the team) dont really enjoy being the cops.
We enjoy building, playing, DMing, scripting etc.

I have seen over time that more and more people are talking about being griefed on hte froums, but our mail box stays empty. To me this means one of two things:
1) The players have gotten together IC and/or OOC and worked things out (This is IMO ideal)
2) The person shouting that htey were griefed was full of shit

Basicly what I am saying is before you post that you have been griefed, try to discuss it with the other player(s), and then if this fails, send an email to staff@avlis.org and let us know what happened, what you tried to do about it etc.

What does this all have to do with the topic at hand? Not much I went OT a bit, back on topic:

We have left the defanition of griefing kinda vauge for a reason.* If we state that X & Y are griefing, then someone will do Z and give us the excuse" Its not listed as griefing! I didnt know or I wouldnt have done it"
Try appling this to determine if its griefing:
1) Is this IC without any metagaming or OOC info?
2) If my actions were done to me by another player, would I still think that they are not griefing?
3) Do I have a good IC reason to do this?
4) This action may have IC reprecussions, am I ready to accept them?

If you can honestly answer yes to all of the above, you are probably ok to do it. If not, you might want to give it more thought.

-Alex

* With this in mind, you might wonder why I suggested that this topic be started... I thought that some communication on the subject might help.
Last edited by Alexandru Stanicu on Mon Mar 01, 2004 6:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
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