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A more clear definition of griefing?

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A more clear definition of griefing?

PostAuthor: Sarmanos » Sun Feb 22, 2004 5:19 am

Well as I've seen over my time here people make a lot of cries of griefing for things that I wouldn't even call griefing. First let's take a look at the current griefing rule.

1) Grief-style playing, or griefing, is illegal. Griefing is defined by any style of play that makes the person playing a character feel genuine distress and anger through disruption of their gaming session.

Problem I see here is that it may be purposefully broad which I can understand to some extent. Another problem is though that it is so broad that Grief can be called on just about anything no matter how idiotic it is. As I understand this leads to a lot of poor accusations along with a lot of junk e-mail for staff. As things stand right now I could call grief about someone making a remark to me in game that I don't like because I'm having a bad day or even just get pickpocketed once and call it. Now there are a few actions that are griefing hands down though.

Examples:

-Corpse camping(Waiting at someone's corpse to kill them again)

-Dry looting and logging or dry looting and offering no method for the looted character to get back his/her items(This applies to good looting evil chars of their things as well I might add)

-Intentionally killing merchants or NPCs solely to prevent PCs from crafting, buying, or selling. Also destroying crafting equipment purposefully.

-Rapid-fire pickpocketing

-Indiscrimnately killing PCs for no reason at all other than just to be "Teh 3vi1"

This overly broad definition of griefing as it stands leaves evil character players constantly nervous that what they do could cause someone to cry grief over it. That argument has already been done there but I just felt I should mention it. However, I do believe a tighter definition of griefing is sorely needed to both alleviate player and staff stress over the matter.
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PostAuthor: choraldances » Sun Feb 22, 2004 5:39 am

This is a good discussion to have.

I agree, in general of the list you have there, but there will be exceptions, I'm not saying often, say 1 out of every 20 is an exception to the rule.

This, for example: could very well have exceptions
-Intentionally killing merchants or NPCs solely to prevent PCs from crafting, buying, or selling. Also destroying crafting equipment purposefully.


But a good list.
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PostAuthor: Alexandru Stanicu » Sun Feb 22, 2004 5:49 am

I agree Choral, we should have a nice discussion about this topic. Please everyone stay polite and on topic, posts that do not will be deleted.
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Re: A more clear definition of griefing?

PostAuthor: Titanium Dragon » Sun Feb 22, 2004 6:00 am

Sarmanos wrote:Well as I've seen over my time here people make a lot of cries of griefing for things that I wouldn't even call griefing. First let's take a look at the current griefing rule.

1) Grief-style playing, or griefing, is illegal. Griefing is defined by any style of play that makes the person playing a character feel genuine distress and anger through disruption of their gaming session.

Problem I see here is that it may be purposefully broad which I can understand to some extent. Another problem is though that it is so broad that Grief can be called on just about anything no matter how idiotic it is. As I understand this leads to a lot of poor accusations along with a lot of junk e-mail for staff. As things stand right now I could call grief about someone making a remark to me in game that I don't like because I'm having a bad day or even just get pickpocketed once and call it. Now there are a few actions that are griefing hands down though.


Indeed.

-Corpse camping(Waiting at someone's corpse to kill them again)


Undeniably (I cannot think of a real reason why it wouldn't be) griefing, as is rezzing someone to kill them again (or killing someone and rezzing them just so they lose xp).

-Dry looting and logging or dry looting and offering no method for the looted character to get back his/her items(This applies to good looting evil chars of their things as well I might add)


In general, yes.

-Intentionally killing merchants or NPCs solely to prevent PCs from crafting, buying, or selling. Also destroying crafting equipment purposefully.


Not really, unless you just do it for the fun of it. if you are doing it for some reason, then it is far more reasonable (example: kill fanos to sell bottles for 10 gold each, destroy alchemist apparatii because too many crafters are desecrating the woods, ect.)

-Rapid-fire pickpocketing


Probably so.

-Indiscrimnately killing PCs for no reason at all other than just to be "Teh 3vi1"


Or because they are "evil" and you are "teh 600d".

This overly broad definition of griefing as it stands leaves evil character players constantly nervous that what they do could cause someone to cry grief over it. That argument has already been done there but I just felt I should mention it. However, I do believe a tighter definition of griefing is sorely needed to both alleviate player and staff stress over the matter.


Arr.

A few things to add:

OOC sexual harassment.
IC sex crimes
Harassment through TELLs
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PostAuthor: Arena Helerin » Sun Feb 22, 2004 6:18 am

Killing characters for holding external characteristics that they have no option of roleplaying out of. (ex. alignment, class, race)
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Re: A more clear definition of griefing?

PostAuthor: Vergilius » Sun Feb 22, 2004 6:19 am

I'd like to do my best to address some of the borderline issues.

for example, it can be IC to kill other players, it can be IC to have an assholish character that causes problems from other, there is a line somewhere that differentiates legitatimate ICness from griefing.

Where is the line crossed? We play this game as recreation for fun. While not everything in the game may be fun, especially when other people are involved, we should always look out as best as we can to make sure they are having fun. Its a respect issue largely and I believe the burden is upon the player of the character causing the potential problem to show that they are looking out for the right of the other person to have fun in this game.

Thus, "I just killed you, I took X from your corpose, you can get it back in X,Y, or Z ways" is acceptible. A lot of people do this already. They ask, "would it greatly bother you if I took X from your corpse?" It demonstrates that a player has respect for the other person's fun.

Show respect, get respect back.

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PostAuthor: Melakin Skywieder » Sun Feb 22, 2004 7:31 am

Very nice point Verg.

It sometimes seems that people forget that it is just a game, and one, I think that there is no winner or loser unless one takes the fun away from someone else. Many of us, particularly the older ones :shock: have stressful enough real lifes and dont want to add to that in our fun.

Remembering that an making an effort to make sure that everyone has fun is important. CvC battles can be great fun when done right but as has been clearly shown about every 3 or 4 months there are exceptions when some of those things above are not followed.
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PostAuthor: Sindol » Sun Feb 22, 2004 10:01 am

As was already observed, the griefing definition is that broad purposely. I don't think we will ever be able to write down definitely all things that are griefing and all that are not.

When all is said and done, the best you can do as a player if you think you have been griefed, is report it and leave it to the DMs to decide. Don't worry about spamming the team, we take all your complaints seriously.

Having said that, also keep in mind that not all claims of griefing will be judged that. As a player you basically never have all the facts, while the team usually does or has means to get them. This brings me back to my first point; in the end interpretation by the collective team will be used to decide whether something is griefing or not. In order not to tie our own hands too much, I'd prefer it to keep the definition a bit looser.

The question that will inherently surface by some is: "But can't this be abused as well as used for good?" The answer is of course yes and no two ways about it. The question that you have to ask yourself when you are afraid of that happening should however be: "Why am I playing here if I don't trust the DMs?" If I were in a game where I didn't trust the game leaders to be impartial, I'd be gone before you could say "poopensliemer".
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PostAuthor: Tangleroot » Sun Feb 22, 2004 10:36 am

This conversation is needed. I'm really nervous about these things lately, and well, don't do much evil stuff. I always use tells before or after cvc action, but I've been just feeling that it's not worth the hassle. -> Might as well as be a normal good character.
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PostAuthor: Titanium Dragon » Sun Feb 22, 2004 10:51 am

Arr. Don't feel that way.

Vence was in a lot of CvC early on in his career, but I dont' think I've actually fought another PC in months now.

Sh'lieulias still hasn't instigated a CvC situation directly, save once, when someone was following me around stealthed and I didn't like it so I fireballed them after giving them a warning to stop following me. He now has a price on his head in T'Nanshi, which will likely at some point lead to CvC, but hasn't yet.

As far as I know, I have never had a griefing complain filed against me. If you act IC, 90% of the time no one complains OOC. 10% of the time they do, and if you are acting totally IC and in a reasonable manner, the chances of you being banned are remote. I wouldn't sweat it so much. Just do what seems right to you.
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PostAuthor: Tangleroot » Sun Feb 22, 2004 10:55 am

Yeah, I guess that makes sense. It's just the atmosphere concerning these things here has been very tense lately. It's the feeling of 'If I blow up somebody's sawhorse, will I need Perry Mason or Matlock?' But thanks for the encouragement.
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PostAuthor: Titanium Dragon » Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:04 am

See if you can find Brick's character Rien; he's back now and ready for Verossa action. He hangs out in the wilderness so you'd have to catch him there. I'm sure he'll tell you all sorts of stories about how he's killed the nature-killing humans.
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PostAuthor: Lafferty » Sun Feb 22, 2004 4:19 pm

The main problem i see about griefing is that it is totally subjective. Every player has a different definition of fun. That means that every player is distressed by different kind of actions.

What worries me is the distrust some are showing towards others. They automatically assume that the person they feel griefed by did this to grief (i.e. intentionally to ruin their fun). In most cases this is not true (afaik). People should be a bit more relaxed and use the possibility to pm or use tells in-time.

Right now i think there has come up a tendency to rant about every little occasion you even felt a little bit griefed on the boards.

Another tendency is to call someone a griefer based on hearsay - meaning that someone actually not involved accuses someone of griefing even if there has nothing happened to be called griefing and no party felt griefed.

What we should try is to reduce the level of subjectiveness without defining what fun is. Though it sounds like a contradiction i think we can all call upon a shared level of common sense.

One basic reasoning everyone should care to make from time to time is: "How would i react if that happens to ME what i am about to do to someone else?". If your anwers is: "I think i could feel griefed" fire up the board and pm the person or send the person a tell in-game.
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PostAuthor: Dralix » Sun Feb 22, 2004 4:28 pm

How about this ... if you feel you may have been griefed, talk it over with the other person first.

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PostAuthor: Lafferty » Sun Feb 22, 2004 4:30 pm

Another thought:

There is a difference between ME intentionally griefing a PLAYER and and my CHARACTER intentionally griefing another player's CHARACTER.

The first is illegal on avlis and should be reported to the team ( staff@avlis.org ). But dont forget: The team is making the final decision!

...the second is not - it is totally IC.


Another thought is:

If i grief someone (the PLAYER) by accident this is someting that can always happen. You never know where someone has his "grief-spot".
It it happens between CHARACTERS: RP it.
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PostAuthor: Melakin Skywieder » Sun Feb 22, 2004 4:44 pm

Also CvC does not have to mean killing someone. It might but it doesnt have to.

Beating someone to within an inch of their life and getting them to agree to stop (fill in the blank) should be an very acceptable means of RPing. Trouble is usually people give the "I'd rather die first response" knowing that they will be back to avenge it or at least pick up their things :)

The firing a fireball at someone was a prefect example TD, it said back off but many not have even damaged someone too much.
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PostAuthor: WrathOG777 » Sun Feb 22, 2004 4:46 pm

Lafferty wrote:One basic reasoning everyone should care to make from time to time is: "How would i react if that happens to ME what i am about to do to someone else?". If your anwers is: "I think i could feel griefed" fire up the board and pm the person or send the person a tell in-game.


This is the basic reason why the rule as stands needs definition. We are all different people from different places. We have different backgrounds, different religions, different values, different amounts of freetime, different characters of differing races/classes/philosophys.

The assumption that everyone thinks the same is just ludicrous. We are all individuals, we think differently, we have different opinions. When I ask myself that question I am bound to come up with a different answer then the next player.

We need some clear guidelines with some examples of what is and is not greifing. These guidelines need to be completely alignment/class/group unspecific. No group in avlis should see themselves as unequal under the guidelines. For instance, currently the armys are under some very rough rules that others donot need to follow. I am not saying this will be all encompassing, but folks need to be able to look at the list and use it as a referance to figure out what they can do without any fear of being labeled a greifer.

Players here need to be able to opporate without fear. Without thinking everything they do is going to get them kicked off the server. And right now, sadly, folks do feel that way.
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PostAuthor: Vergilius » Sun Feb 22, 2004 4:48 pm

Lafferty wrote:
If i grief someone (the PLAYER) by accident this is someting that can always happen. You never know where someone has his "grief-spot".
It it happens between CHARACTERS: RP it.


This goes back to the respect issue. 90% of these accidents can be cleared up by a few friendly tells back and forth.

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PostAuthor: Vergilius » Sun Feb 22, 2004 4:54 pm

WrathOG777 wrote:
Lafferty wrote:One basic reasoning everyone should care to make from time to time is: "How would i react if that happens to ME what i am about to do to someone else?". If your anwers is: "I think i could feel griefed" fire up the board and pm the person or send the person a tell in-game.


This is the basic reason why the rule as stands needs definition. We are all different people from different places. We have different backgrounds, different religions, different values, different amounts of freetime, different characters of differing races/classes/philosophys.


while the rule as it stands lacks clarity, one thing I like about it is that it shows respect for the person whose character may be at the end of the negative treatment. To me that is why communication and respect are so vitally important, the burden is upon the perpetrator to make sure the experience was not taken the wrong way by the other player. Most people in the game handle misfortunes quite well, if only there is communication, understanding and respect between the players involved.

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PostAuthor: Sarmanos » Sun Feb 22, 2004 6:54 pm

There are indeed some players out there who do feel grief if even the *slightest* bad thing happens to their character due to the actions of another character no matter how IC it may be. I will also say it is impossible to please all of the people all of the time. It can't be done no matter what and do need to realize that bad things maybe or can happen to their character no matter how non-confrontational they may be as well. Sending a tell to someone before you attack may sound like good form but if you are going for an ambush that character then they will be looking for you no matter how good a rp'er they are and in some cases it just isn't viable.

Although it may sound mean but some players do need to get thicker skin in dealing with things that happen to their character as well and realize it can't all be victory and glory.
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PostAuthor: Cymbolism » Sun Feb 22, 2004 7:12 pm

fun good, unfun bad.
simple.

If someone takes something and it means a chance to RP getting it back - good.
If someone takes something and it means a chance for CvC to get it back - good.
If its simply taken for their own gain - bad. It's simply a matter of keeping things in the right light. If people are taking things - then it needs to lead to RP or CvC fun later on. Selfish acts are those that offend others.

Everything else about the rule is self explanitory to me.

The only thing that I might add is that you get greifed, chances are that someone of the mindset to do so probably doesn't even read the boards.

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PostAuthor: stoertebeker » Sun Feb 22, 2004 10:40 pm

i never had the feeling that someone is griefing me.

but after reading the boards the past few days i will think twice before i post anything about it.
because when you post you most likely will be griefed much more by the replies than by the origin incident!


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Re: A more clear definition of griefing?

PostAuthor: Lafferty » Mon Feb 23, 2004 12:50 pm

Sarmanos wrote:1) Grief-style playing, or griefing, is illegal. Griefing is defined by any style of play that makes the person playing a character feel genuine distress and anger through disruption of their gaming session.


I'd make it to:

1) Grief-style playing, or griefing, is illegal. Griefing is defined by any style of out of character play that makes the person playing a character feel genuine distress and anger through disruption of their gaming session.
In character behaviour and playing style may well grief another character. If played correctly this is not covered by this rule



Well, as mentioned before, we can define griefing by what it is or/and what it not is. I think we need both approaches. As much as giving examples helps understanding what is meant with this rule there shouldn't occur any examples in the rule itself.

I also think that a lot of problems with griefing or being griefed boils down to the problem what is IC and what is OOC.

E.g., if a person plays a character in a way so he gets the opportunity to act in a way against another character (i.e. griefing) it might not necessarily be IC if the original motivation is not covered by the griefing character's concept/mindset.
Right now you can say/justify quite often that your actions are IC but they are truly OOC if you look at them closely. But who defines what is IC for your character if not yourself? It has been stated that on avlis there is no RP-IC-GUIDELINE, that tells you how to play a character.

Maybe my reasoning is a little bit confusing but i hope your are getting an idea about what i'm talking here.

Terms to be defined better:
-IC
-OOC
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Re: A more clear definition of griefing?

PostAuthor: Vergilius » Mon Feb 23, 2004 3:45 pm

Lafferty wrote:
Sarmanos wrote:1) Grief-style playing, or griefing, is illegal. Griefing is defined by any style of play that makes the person playing a character feel genuine distress and anger through disruption of their gaming session.


I'd make it to:

1) Grief-style playing, or griefing, is illegal. Griefing is defined by any style of out of character play that makes the person playing a character feel genuine distress and anger through disruption of their gaming session.
In character behaviour and playing style may well grief another character. If played correctly this is not covered by this rule



E.g., if a person plays a character in a way so he gets the opportunity to act in a way against another character (i.e. griefing) it might not necessarily be IC if the original motivation is not covered by the griefing character's concept/mindset.
Right now you can say/justify quite often that your actions are IC but they are truly OOC if you look at them closely. But who defines what is IC for your character if not yourself? It has been stated that on avlis there is no RP-IC-GUIDELINE, that tells you how to play a character.


I find that definition inadequate. Simply having an IC reason to do something just doesn't cut it. People can BS just about any IC reason that they want. For me, it is the attitude that counts, if you have an IC reason to do something but ultimately show disrespect and unconcern for the other player sitting behind the screen, that is the line. Honesty, as you point out, something may appear IC but be for an entirely different reason, the team can dig and dig, probably come pretty close to the truth, but only the player himself will actuallly know the truth. The new definition just exchanges one ambiguity for another.

What we can fall back on is "respect". I don't care how IC something is for another character to do, if they act like a jerk when it comes to inquiring about an action through Tells, I would report them. As is, 95% of Avlis players understand respect, for most of the people who read this, its preaching to the choir.
Last edited by Vergilius on Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostAuthor: Tharliss » Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:01 pm

Tangleroot wrote:This conversation is needed. I'm really nervous about these things lately, and well, don't do much evil stuff. I always use tells before or after cvc action, but I've been just feeling that it's not worth the hassle. -> Might as well as be a normal good character.


Hopefully you don't really think this way.

My first and only run-in with the "Crazy Shiftin' Man" was a very fun rp session. It did involve some mild CvC, but both of us were rp'ing our characters appropiately and there was no harm done...except for you blowing up all of those commoners. :wink:

Seriously, CvC can provide alot of great rp opportunities. And using tells shouldn't be looked at as a hassle. I've actually had enjoyable player to player conversations even though our characters hated each other.

BTW, Zach is still keeping an eye out for you... :twisted:
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