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Forum for posing direct questions to the Avlis Team. Purpose is to facilitate Team/Player communication.

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PostAuthor: Vergilius » Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:27 pm

alright, I can't speak to the critical roll not hitting the AC on the second one, but I've poked about a bit and discovered something about normal hits that do not hit the "supposed" AC. I say supposed because there are a lot of factors that go into AC, other than the base number you see on the sheet.

One of those factors is flat-footed. You can sort of tell when this happens if you watch your character anim enough, but often in a lag fest battle you wouldn't be able to tell a whole lot. Anyway, this costs you all your Dodge bonuses to AC as well as your Dex modifier to AC. Now, frankly, from what I've seen so far, NWN is a bit dopey on when it causes you to go flat-footed. For example, I noticed this earlier today, I used a fireball arrow, then went flat footed for an instant, combined with lag, I say 3 hits on me, all at about 8 below my AC as printed on the character sheet. The explanation has to be that it was considering my character flat-footed ((despite already being engaged in combat for over a round, thats what I mean by dopey)).

I hope this helps with the explanation.

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PostAuthor: Spell Singer » Wed Feb 25, 2004 12:02 pm

You realy need to look in the players handbook and DM guide on when you are considered flatfooted and when you loose bonuses and so on.

It is not impossible to go flat footed in a battle. What might be happening though is that the uncanny dodge feat may not be working properly all the time.

It is possible the engine assigns the status of flatfooted in error but it is also like when you drink a potion, not only do you draw an attack of opportunity but you also loose you shield, you might also go flatfooted when doing this as well.

The trouble is that there is no way outside of single player to test a lot of this stuff (as there you can pause and scroll during the fight). And lag is never an issue.

Also it is possible that the flanking bonus is assigned and this is not mentioned in the manual.

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PostAuthor: Vergilius » Wed Feb 25, 2004 4:11 pm

Spell Singer wrote:You realy need to look in the players handbook and DM guide on when you are considered flatfooted and when you loose bonuses and so on.

It is not impossible to go flat footed in a battle. What might be happening though is that the uncanny dodge feat may not be working properly all the time.


It is possible the engine assigns the status of flatfooted in error.[/quote]

Vergilius wrote:The explanation has to be that it was considering my character flat-footed ((despite already being engaged in combat for over a round, thats what I mean by dopey)).


You misread my post, specifically what I just quoted above. I am well-aware that according to PNP rules you are not SUPPOSED to go flat-footed in battle. All I am saying is that IT DID HAPPEN. PNP rules mean squat if the engine doesn't follow them, which is why I called the game engine "dopey".

Spell Singer wrote:It is possible the engine assigns the status of flatfooted in error.


That is exactly my point.

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PostAuthor: Emprod » Wed Feb 25, 2004 4:21 pm

Uncanny dodge 1 doesn't do shit, Van has it and she's a walking archery target IF she's flatfooted. ( not running around or in melee with something).

That's with 40+ AC, 10 of which is from dex, which should be kept while flatfooted.

Don't count on uncanny dodge 1 to do much. Maybe in a later patch, maybe not.

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PostAuthor: maelwydd » Fri Feb 27, 2004 3:54 pm

OK

Now this is really f**king me off. I have just been on with my Monk character and his AC is 30. While in the warrens after a close escape in
The Iron Mines I was attacked by Bugbears. Normall not too much of a problem...

So how in the hell did the following attacks hit my AC 30 Monk: -

10+14=24 Hit
7+14=21 Hit
15+14=29 Hit
13+9=22 Hit
11+14=25 Hit
9+14=23 Hit
7+14=21 Hit
15+14=29 Hit
13+9=22 Hit
15+14=29 Hit
12+14=26 Hit
8+14=22 Hit
15+9=24 Hit
12+14=26 Hit
10+14=24 Hit
7+14=21 Hit
15+14=29 Hit
10+14=24 Hit
7+14=21 Hit
15+14=29 Hit

Now, the attack modifter is included in the attack bonus on the roll so all this stuff about flatfooted should also show here but I am getting hit with rolls that are 9 below my current AC. HOW IN THE HELL????
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PostAuthor: Emprod » Fri Feb 27, 2004 3:58 pm

Were 20's missing?

What's your dex bonus?

Do you have the dodge feat?

Did any 21 rolls miss? Or did every roll of 21 hit?

Remember if they're not directly in front of you (flanking) it's +4 on their side. That doesn't show.

Maybe we can figger somethin out from this, eh?

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PostAuthor: Vergilius » Fri Feb 27, 2004 4:09 pm

I thought flanking was -2 (at least it is in PNP, not sure its stated in the NWN manual), and flat-footed would be a negative on your own AC, again not showing.

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PostAuthor: Dirk Cutlass » Fri Feb 27, 2004 4:19 pm

*raise hand* I volunteer to hit maelwydd from various different angles to test this out :)

@maelwydd, next time you see me call me over and I'll give you a good kicking for experimental research purposes.
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PostAuthor: Spell Singer » Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:50 am

I think I finally understand this.

My character does not have any dex based AC, and I have never, ever observed that things hit me that should not hit me. I also do from time to time look at my combat log.

But what I have observed is that from time to time I end up not engaged. This can occur for a variety of reasons, the most common of which is misclicking in some way with knockdown. When I do this I have to restart the entire combat sequence.

It also happens when for whatever reason you can not reach the next target, suddenly you are just standing there out of combat (flat footed) in which case I would imagine your dex based AC goes good bye. I see this often enough as suddenly my "power attack" goes away and I have to select a new target.

I have a character that relys on dex based AC in SP and will examine this in greater detail. But there is no other reasonable assumption here, the combat routine is simply too simple to have a screw up in it. And it would not only show up for one person and not everyone else.

The feat that should prevent this seems broken and that can be tested fairly easy...take your character and do a taunt against a character with sneak attack. Doing a taunt makes you go flat footed, have the person with sneak attack punch you while you taunt them. If the sneak attacks go through then the feat is broken. Basically two rogues can check this out in a second.

If the feat is broken report it to bioware as a bug.

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PostAuthor: kombinat » Fri Mar 12, 2004 12:35 pm

Size might be a factor as well? I get hit on rolls of 9 (3+6) with an AC of 31 when flat-footed and polymorphed into a Balor.. tested it out.. when I did something that made me non-flatfooted, like going into Counterspell, AC worked as usual. So unless a Balor's AC is all from Dodge (nimble Balor!), something is whacky about flat-footed AC calculations..
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PostAuthor: Spell Singer » Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:42 am

well then things are starting to make sense here. The monster manual lists it as AC35 and flatfooted at AC28 (+7 dex bonus). I will have a look in the toolset and see what is on there.

The point is that I have no Dex based AC and I just did extensive combat testing and I did not get hit ever when I should not. And this was three sets of those goblins with 500 hp or whatever and 10 minotaurs. So I can also confirm that NWN assigns the flanking bonus to the attack bonus of the creatures (saw the goblins getting +2 attack bonus then droping to +0)
but at no time did anything weird happen.

I would guess that possibly the flat footed AC is calculated wrongly as the only way a 9 could hit is if the AC was calculated at base 10 + -1 for large creature. And this would explain the entire situation, since basically your AC would drop to 10 + (unknown but likely 0) when you go flatfooted. Natural Armor (the bulk of the balors AC) seems to be being ignored when it should not be. It realy looks like the goof is that instead of just removing dex and dodge based AC it removes (perhaps) all other types maybe leaving only your base from armor.

thanks for the information btw that was a fairly critical bit in the puzzel.

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