Server Totals
Le'Or - (3)
M'Chek - (2)
Visimontium - (0)
Ferrell - (0)
Elysia - (0)
Wilderness - (0)
Deglos - (0)
Underdark - (0)
Mikona - (0)
Total players: 5
Gallery

Links Menu

Criticals

Forum for posing direct questions to the Avlis Team. Purpose is to facilitate Team/Player communication.

Moderators: Nighthawk4, Dungeon Masters

Criticals

PostAuthor: maelwydd » Sat Feb 14, 2004 8:01 pm

How do they work?

I was under the impression that to score a critical you had to make a hit within the critical range of the weapon and then make a second attack roll that is successful against you AC was a critical.

O have noticed several times recently a critical hit on me that the 2nd roll was under my AC (i.e the roll for the monster was 24 and my AC is 28).

Does the 2nd roll have to get over a certain number to make it a critical?

Are there negative modifiers for the roll?

Just asking as I have been killed a couple times by criticals when I don't think I should.
User avatar
maelwydd
Apprentice Scholar
 
Posts: 675
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 12:08 pm
Location: England

PostAuthor: MorphlingROR » Sat Feb 14, 2004 9:04 pm

To score a critical you first need to roll a value in the critical range of your weapon and then make a second roll high enough to hit the opponent's AC. Works for me all the time.

Please note, that your effective AC might be lower than the number displayed under certain circumstances, like, for example, a dexterity bonus not being counted when you are caught flat-footed.

MorphlingROR
Lord of Blithering Idiots
 
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 9:40 am
Location: Riga, Latvia (GMT+2)

PostAuthor: Aloro » Sat Feb 14, 2004 9:06 pm

Weapons have a "threat range", which can be increased by enchantments such as Keen or Feats like Improved Critical. If a weapon's threat range is e.g. 19-20, then anytime you roll a natural (unmodifed) 19 or 20 on your attack roll, you threaten a critical.

After you threaten a critical, you roll again. If the second roll would normally hit the target, the blow is a critical.

If the monster's second roll hits you, the blow should not be a critical. I'm not sure what's happening in your example.

- Aloro
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn wrote:The meaning of earthly existence lies, not as we have grown used to thinking, in prosperity, but in the development of the soul.
User avatar
Aloro
Team Member; Retired with Honors
 
Posts: 12810
Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2002 5:11 am
Location: Rainbow's End

PostAuthor: Dirk Cutlass » Sat Feb 14, 2004 9:15 pm

You sure its not an AoO on you, I think that gives the creature +4, which I'm not sure appears on the roll (i.e. it effectively lowers your AC, rather than appears as a bonus to the attacker). Not sure though. Could well be something like this ?
User avatar
Dirk Cutlass
Elder Sage
 
Posts: 4703
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2003 9:42 am
Location: GMT

PostAuthor: maelwydd » Sat Feb 14, 2004 11:02 pm

I have Dodge, Mobility and Spring attack so I should not be getting AOO in combat against me anymore.

I also have a Tumble skill of 22.

I also have Uncanny Dodge 2 which says I retain my dex bonus even if caught flat footed.

Not sure why I got hit with a critical...
User avatar
maelwydd
Apprentice Scholar
 
Posts: 675
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 12:08 pm
Location: England

PostAuthor: Sickocrow » Sat Feb 14, 2004 11:15 pm

The creatures rolled a natural 20, and gets lucky on it's threaten roll....

Critical hit

Happens to me all the time for some silly reason.
Nighhawk4 wrote:All Hail, oh Mighty Sausage. Hear our prayer, we beseech You, Oh Wondrous Tube of Surplus Meat-related Material.

Sickocrow
Sage
 
Posts: 2426
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2003 6:58 pm
Location: West Australia, (GMT+8)
Timezone: GMT+8

PostAuthor: maelwydd » Sun Feb 15, 2004 9:10 am

The last 2 times I checked they did get a 20 on the to hit roll but the 2nd roll was below my AC. I understood that to be just a normal hit...

If I can get an example I will...
User avatar
maelwydd
Apprentice Scholar
 
Posts: 675
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 12:08 pm
Location: England

PostAuthor: The Constrainer » Sun Feb 15, 2004 2:17 pm

Do creatures get the full advantages of critical or, are they spossed to on Avlis. It seems to me that most of the time this is off. When I get hit with a critical I take maybe the max damage of the wepon but it seems not to be multiplyed for the creatures that is. Once I believe the settings were changed and I noticed a big difference. Obviously when being attacked by groups of monsters they have many more chances to roll crits and with x3 multiplyer some wepons have, 30 damage to the normal 10 was not expected. So my question is are crits in Avlis spossed to work normally for monsters?

The Constrainer
Scholar of Fools
 
Posts: 324
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 10:54 pm
Location: Pennsylvania

PostAuthor: maelwydd » Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:35 pm

Now that I am watching for this, an interesting statistic...

Fighting some beetles that needed a 20 to hit me. In the combat I received 131 attacks on me. Now a 20 on a d20 is 5% so I should expect to get hit 5% of the time on average. I got hit with a 20 13 times. So instead of being hit an average 6.6 times with a natural 20 I got hit 13 times. that is 2 times the normal needed.

Anyone else getting strange results?
User avatar
maelwydd
Apprentice Scholar
 
Posts: 675
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 12:08 pm
Location: England

PostAuthor: Strangg » Sun Feb 15, 2004 9:37 pm

maelwydd wrote:Now that I am watching for this, an interesting statistic...

Fighting some beetles that needed a 20 to hit me. In the combat I received 131 attacks on me. Now a 20 on a d20 is 5% so I should expect to get hit 5% of the time on average. I got hit with a 20 13 times. So instead of being hit an average 6.6 times with a natural 20 I got hit 13 times. that is 2 times the normal needed.

Anyone else getting strange results?


NWN isn't exactly random when it comes to its numbers. It's been talked about before, it gets very streaky.



~S
Fighters do it face to face, Rogues may do it from behind, Rangers can do it from a distance, Wizards do it from out of nowhere, Clerics may not do it at all, Barbarians may do it in a rage, Sorcerers can do it on a whim, Bards on a note, but Paladins have to pay for it!

"You have a way with words... like a sage with a two-by-four" ~ Ava
User avatar
Strangg
Team Member; Retired with Honors
 
Posts: 4179
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2002 11:25 am
Location: Heaven

PostAuthor: Fuzz » Sun Feb 15, 2004 11:49 pm

NWN's rolls aren't random AT ALL.

Nob and I have tested and proven that the difficulty setting directly affects the dice rolls, i.e. on a lower difficulty, enemies get crappier rolls and you get better ones, and on harder difficulties, vice versa. It's gimmicked.
<Sili> I've seen septic tanks with less shit in them than Fuzz.

<Ronnin> damm not even a kiss??
<Chasmania> Kiss Fuzz? I'd rather fellate a goat.

<Chasmania> there are many roads to Rome..they just picked a shit filled alley full of scabby hookers and bums.


The shape of things to come...
User avatar
Fuzz
Elder Sage
 
Posts: 4649
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2003 4:36 am
Location: Kayvareh

PostAuthor: Spell Singer » Mon Feb 16, 2004 12:20 pm

No computer based random number generator is perfectly random.

Depending on the number of die rolls being made the situation gets more complex...when many (and in NWN many is an understatment) calls are made to the more or less common Random Number Generator algrothims then you get non-random behavior.

Most scientific work that requires Random Numbers (Monte-Carlo simulations) generally have their own built in randomiser, and these are considerably more "robust" then what you find in most software.

More details on this can be found in a copy of "Numerical Recipies in (C or Fortran): The Art of Scientific Computing" by Press Et Al.

And statistically odd behavior you see in NWN is likely due to a insufficiently robust RNG then any intent by bioware to do something stupid.

But due to this I would love to see the saving throw auto failure-auto sucess regardless of it being a 3e rule removed since it becomes basically a crap shoot with quasi loaded dice at a certain point.

Spell Singer
Sage
 
Posts: 1996
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2002 10:03 am
Location: Ismaning (GMT+1)

PostAuthor: FunkOdyssey » Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:35 pm

But due to this I would love to see the saving throw auto failure-auto sucess regardless of it being a 3e rule removed since it becomes basically a crap shoot with quasi loaded dice at a certain point.


Very good idea.
User avatar
FunkOdyssey
Sage
 
Posts: 1954
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 2:46 pm
Location: Newington, CT (GMT -5)

PostAuthor: Vergilius » Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:48 pm

FunkOdyssey wrote:
But due to this I would love to see the saving throw auto failure-auto sucess regardless of it being a 3e rule removed since it becomes basically a crap shoot with quasi loaded dice at a certain point.


Very good idea.


yeah, I agree

Vergilius
Team Member; Retired with Honors
 
Posts: 8270
Joined: Sun May 04, 2003 2:37 am
Location: Austin Texas, again
Timezone: US Central

PostAuthor: The Constrainer » Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:26 am

Vergilius wrote:
FunkOdyssey wrote:
But due to this I would love to see the saving throw auto failure-auto sucess regardless of it being a 3e rule removed since it becomes basically a crap shoot with quasi loaded dice at a certain point.


Very good idea.


yeah, I agree

I also agree!

So my question is are crits in Avlis spossed to work normally for monsters?
Anyone know the answer to this?

The Constrainer
Scholar of Fools
 
Posts: 324
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 10:54 pm
Location: Pennsylvania

PostAuthor: KinX » Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:33 am

But due to this I would love to see the saving throw auto failure-auto sucess regardless of it being a 3e rule removed since it becomes basically a crap shoot with quasi loaded dice at a certain point.


now that you say that, i do notice that rolls of 1 or 20 tend to happen in groups. It's not all that uncommon for me to roll 2-3 criticals in one combat round. On the other hand, it's not all that common for me to succesfully roll an autofail in groups.

Jad spawned about 6-8 bodaks for Kharak a few days ago and he didn't have his protections up. Rolled a 1 and went into bleeding script, then regen'd, got up, rolled another 1, back to bleeding, regen'd, got up, rolled a 1, back to bleeding. This happened about 3-4 times in a row if i remember correctly.
Never argue with an idiot, they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience

Image

This statement is false
User avatar
KinX
Elder Sage
 
Posts: 4968
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 2:53 pm
Timezone: GMT +1

PostAuthor: Titanium Dragon » Tue Feb 17, 2004 1:17 am

Just remember - the dice are loaded for them too!

Plus, it makes you not want to fight such nasty things. 5% is still a high chance.
Gilkin> ouch. how often do you roll a 20?
Cath> once every 20 rolls?
User avatar
Titanium Dragon
Sage
 
Posts: 2917
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2003 5:18 pm
Location: Corvallis, OR (GMT - 7)

PostAuthor: Vergilius » Tue Feb 17, 2004 1:49 am

KinX wrote:
now that you say that, i do notice that rolls of 1 or 20 tend to happen in groups. It's not all that uncommon for me to roll 2-3 criticals in one combat round. On the other hand, it's not all that common for me to succesfully roll an autofail in groups.


Yes, I've seen the same sequencing. I'll crit 3 times in around, then turn around and roll 2 ones in a row next round. Its clumpy way to frequently.

Vergilius
Team Member; Retired with Honors
 
Posts: 8270
Joined: Sun May 04, 2003 2:37 am
Location: Austin Texas, again
Timezone: US Central

PostAuthor: Starslayer_D » Tue Feb 17, 2004 10:26 am

High level fighters get a lot more criticals simply because their threat confirmation rolls are less prone to fail.. comes with the huge + to hit they have.

I notice this effect every time Amonien casts her combat buffs wich add +13 to the BAB. Suddenly, the criticals are a lot more frequent.
ashzz: at the very core of the problem is that good characters and organizations can do much more EVIL in the name of good than evil can do evil.
Daerthe: There is only room for so much realism before things start to get silly

Starslayer_D
Master Sage
 
Posts: 5182
Joined: Thu Oct 24, 2002 7:35 pm
Location: Germany (+1 GMT)

PostAuthor: Spell Singer » Tue Feb 17, 2004 11:33 am

the trouble is the way the RNG works...system supplied ones in C for example might have only 32767 random numbers. And the usual call produces a number that looks like I(j+1) = a*I(j)+c. a and c are constants...

It is not free of correlation between sucessive calls since the number that shows up is obviously related to the number before.

So since what you have is likely Round_to_nearest_integer(rand()*20) giving you your rolls; you will see non-random behavior. Absolutely without any doubt.

So you probably get results where 1,1,2 comes up or 19,20,20 comes up more often then you would rolling a d20.

And think about how quickly you can make 32K calls to the random number generator (if they picked a Rand_max that is that low but that is all the ansi C standard requires)...this is the sort of question that realy only someone who can look at the source code can answer.

But this is what I guess is happening frankly when someone says they see statistically odd behavior.

Spell Singer
Sage
 
Posts: 1996
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2002 10:03 am
Location: Ismaning (GMT+1)

PostAuthor: maelwydd » Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:30 pm

OK, great, some nice maths work here, but...


Why am I getting hit with a critical when the threat roll is less then my AC?

*points to original point in first post*
User avatar
maelwydd
Apprentice Scholar
 
Posts: 675
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 12:08 pm
Location: England

PostAuthor: Spell Singer » Tue Feb 17, 2004 3:28 pm

Are you sure you are getting hit with a critical? Lots of things do major damage without a critical hit anyway.

I have never seen a critical hit when the second roll did not confirm it...never.

Also are you sure your AC is what you think it is? Were you, for example, taunted?

And so far as I am aware there is one bonus to Attacks of Opportunity, except it is done at your full attack bonus. The only modifiers to an attack of opportunity comes from mobility which gives you a +4 AC adjustment against them and from the rogue feat opportunistic which gives you a bonus to hit someone when you make an attack of oportunity (or something like that).

It, however, is not clear if things like shields count in them if you are drinking a potion. And in the case of the original poster that could be the case since spring attack does not apply to drinking potions just to movement. But you would have seen the script indicating that these were attacks of opportunity.

But for me it is far more likely that there was something reducing your AC at the time then something is wrong in the critical hit resolution part of the combat system.

Spell Singer
Sage
 
Posts: 1996
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2002 10:03 am
Location: Ismaning (GMT+1)

PostAuthor: maelwydd » Tue Feb 17, 2004 6:08 pm

It showed as a critical hit on the right hand panel. A natural 20 to hit and a threat roll of 24 in total. It was a hit from a Half Orc bandit for 68 points of damage which has got to be a critical. I had a 28 AC, was not wearing a shield, have Dodge, Mobility and Spring attack and was facing him 1 on 1. It was not an AOO, Sneak or during a potion drink.

I wish I had made a screen dump of it...
User avatar
maelwydd
Apprentice Scholar
 
Posts: 675
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 12:08 pm
Location: England

PostAuthor: Alex Noble » Tue Feb 17, 2004 8:28 pm

I have noticed that sometimes an attack roll hits that is less than my AC, But this happens alot when fighting a mob, so I think NWN might be using flanking. You get a -2 to your AC when flanked in 3e, and also if your charge. Not sure if its a bug, or if there is some unseen AC adjustment going on in the back ground. And yes the Half Orc bandit's and Dwarf Merc's get way to many critical hits. I have scrolled back up thru the log after some nasty fights, and still could not figure out why some of the hits were scored.
Alex Noble
Retired Headmaster of the AKN
If anyone rembers EDGE High Champion of EDGE
Defender of Deglos (should still have this title)

OR

Frin Reyna
Mage of the Red Order of the Flame
User avatar
Alex Noble
Apprentice Scholar
 
Posts: 908
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 10:42 pm
Location: Michigan GMT -4 or -5 depending on daylight savings

PostAuthor: Papainhell » Tue Feb 17, 2004 10:05 pm

Alex Noble wrote:I have scrolled back up thru the log after some nasty fights, and still could not figure out why some of the hits were scored.


Whew, I am not alone in this practice :P

I've also had a problem with geting hit by attacks that roll for less then my AC, most notably by dire wolves, that I remember. This happened both, squared up one on one and in a mob.
Image
Playing as:
Master Odel Helmsplitter
Odel Helmsplitter- Hammer Fist Stylist, monk of The Order of The Dragon.
User avatar
Papainhell
Sage
 
Posts: 2141
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 1:09 am
Location: Kodiak, Alaska (for now)
Timezone: Time?

Next

Return to The Avlis Project: Ask the Team

Who is online

Registered users: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot]