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PostAuthor: Arandil » Mon Feb 09, 2004 1:58 pm

You'd also have to be reasonably tough, as they hit hard.

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PostAuthor: Alexandru Stanicu » Mon Feb 09, 2004 2:11 pm

Titanium Dragon wrote:One major isssue with the money thing is that some characters can just make obscene amounts of money easily.

Things like the M'chekian special forces spawns give about 2.5K per spawn, which is just rediculous and gives people who run through those an incredible amount of money. Looting houses is another easy way to make huge amounts of money. Heal potions are another way, and I presume crafting weapons yet another. There's numerous ways to make essentially infinite amounts of cash in short periods of time.



Sounds like an ISD... have you reported it? If you havent why not?

-Alex

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http://www.avlis.org/viewtopic.php?t=22514 Is on our rules section and referances the post linked to above.
Last edited by Alexandru Stanicu on Mon Feb 09, 2004 2:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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PostAuthor: Khaelindra » Mon Feb 09, 2004 2:18 pm

Titanium Dragon wrote:If you make it so that every epic plot needs the epic-level characters, and anyone else might as well not come as they will simply die instantly, you're going to end up with exactly that.


This last thing is defenitely not restricted to Avlis, but a sore spot in many worlds. Hell, i almost bowed out of HALA with my lvl 8/9 because everytime she got within 50 yards of an epic-level character the whole world around her suddenly turned epic-powerlevel and she'd get vaporized every time enemies showed up. She even had three simultaneous ultra-high Horrid Wiltings eat away at her 40 hp before she could say "cheesecake" :roll:

This has come up many times befoe, and no doubt will many times again. Two simple things can easily remedy most of that.
At one side the epic characters could go for buffing the lowlevels instead making themselves into demigods: refraining from casting 25 buffspells on themselves and having 2 mage armors for the 5 lowlevels, but taking a basic buff themselves and spending most of their buffs on those lowlevels. Not being a mega-cannon helps too. I know, i know, it can be grossly not IC for many characters to do anything else but buff themselves to the max, but contrary to many i believe good RP is not automatically the best way to let others have a good time. Sometimes meta-gaming aspects intended to level the playfield a bit is nice too.
At the other side, DM's could try to take a little more time preparing encounters, and using that extra time to create diversity in the encounter. Not one adamandite golem against a party so that only 2 out of 8 characters can even begin to damage it, but a mythril golem charging head-on and 5 flesh golems making a rear-attack instead. Or something like that.
Players actively persuing my first point make it much easier for DM's to make my second point happen by the way.

And yes, it's sucky that some plots seem to go right out of the control of the low/midlevels who have been working hard for it as an epic level barges in, uses power, contacts and prestige to work themselves to the core of the plot and take it on a high-ride. It's a shame when you have to keep your precious plot a secret if you wish to have any continued influence on it, and the fact that it's done more and more is maybe something to think about.

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PostAuthor: tindertwiggy » Mon Feb 09, 2004 2:18 pm

Titanium Dragon wrote:One major isssue with the money thing is that some characters can just make obscene amounts of money easily.

Things like the M'chekian special forces spawns give about 2.5K per spawn, which is just rediculous and gives people who run through those an incredible amount of money. Looting houses is another easy way to make huge amounts of money. Heal potions are another way, and I presume crafting weapons yet another. There's numerous ways to make essentially infinite amounts of cash in short periods of time.


TD this sounds like it belongs in an email to staff@avlis.org....
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PostAuthor: Khaelindra » Mon Feb 09, 2004 2:23 pm

Tangleroot wrote:Am I wrong, but I thought gold finds depend on your level and spawn levels? Thus low-levels find almost nothing, while high levels find loads?


Yes, it's the AND-AND thing that is having quite a big effect...not only do the higher levels give more drops (at the 2%/mlevel ratio), but ALSO those drops are much better at high level.
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PostAuthor: Dralix » Mon Feb 09, 2004 2:39 pm

Titanium Dragon wrote:You aren't dragging new people into these plots, and I think it may partially be a function of them feeling they cannot contribute because they are "weak".

...

However, I believe that it is essential to get players of all categories involved in epic plots rather than simply the epic level ones, else you make them feel like fifth wheels.


How do you think Dralix feels when he's grouped with just about anyone? Feels like he is just along for the ride. He's got some serious self esteem problems right now that he is trying to overcome. That comes mostly from me OOCly, feeling useless as a player and character, but it works for him IC too.

Titanium Dragon wrote:I tried giving away +2 equipment though for a month and no one would take it. It kinda sucked. I was literally giving it away, and no one wanted it. Why the guilt? I didn't want to lug it around. That was just wierd.


I'll make you a deal. Next time Sh'lieulias offers Dralix something, he'll take it. ;) Really he had no IC reason not to take those boots, except maybe thinking that he wouldn't make it home alive with them. ;)

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PostAuthor: Daerthe » Mon Feb 09, 2004 4:45 pm

Hmm...I was originally trying to keep my comments light-hearted, but that doesn't seem to work too well on these boards.

Lowbie/mid-levels PCs can and do get involved in events. Not to say that high-levels don't come in and steal the show at times, but it is up to you the player to open your PCs mouth and say something. My level 8 paladin rarely goes out with any party where there isn't at least one PC that is 2 to 3 times her level, but that doesn't stop her from fighting on the front line and it doesn't stop her from adding her 2 cents to the RP either. Be persistent, ask questions. If you don't have a lot of contacts, ask people you know who you should talk to about something.

I started here two months ago, I didn't know a soul. So I was a little shy at first. Then I started greeting people and getting to know folks. By level 3, I was getting involved in an order. At this point, I'm no longer afraid to stand up and say what I think or ask questions when I don't understand what's going on. And because of this, my PC is a lot more involved in events. Your PCs are as involved as you want to make them. But if you don't stand up for yourself, nobody is going to hand everything to you on a silver platter. I get far more respect from higher level PCs by standing shoulder to shoulder with them and fighting whatever evil comes our way than I would by standing meekly in the back row hoping that monster won't see me if I keep quiet. Do I fall down a lot? Hell yes. And my friends pick me up, dust me off and we go on our merry way. Does it suck sometimes to know you're the weakest link? Yes. But that won't always be the case. Roll with it, move on. Your PC will keep growing and that will eventually change. The important thing here is to remember what it was like and treat those of lower level than you accordingly.

As for how the Avlis community treats newbies as a whole, I'd have to say it's pretty damn good. My first day here I had mid/high level PCs giving me a little gold, equipment, and healing supplies to help me get started. By level 3, I was giving healing supplies and miscellaneous items I found to newbies. I still do. I craft tons of healing kits and I have never sold a single one. I give them away to people I party with who are low on supplies or newbies that I see. I'd give away my last potion/kit to a newb in a heartbeat.

Now for the gods' sake, this is supposed to be fun! Can we stop whining so much and have a good time? If you don't like what's going on around your PC, do something about it. RP it! I was about ready to scrap my PC last week cuz I didn't like where she was going. But I put a lot of work into her, so I turned it around on my terms. Remember that your PC is your creation. So if they're weak little people who won't stand up for themselves and get ignored because of this, the only person who is going to be able to fix that is YOU!

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PostAuthor: FunkOdyssey » Mon Feb 09, 2004 4:49 pm

I agree with the basic philosophy of the above post, that Avlis is what you make of it. You have the power as a player to take the circumstances and environment you find yourself in, and turn it into either a fun experience or something to whine about.
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PostAuthor: Nighthawk4 » Mon Feb 09, 2004 4:54 pm

What a superb post Daerthe. I agree totally.

As I play so many different characters, plus DMing, all my characters are low-level (highest is a 10, but most are much lower). However, most of them are involved in at least one Order - they RP, they comment, they add their two pence worth - in fact, they often say as much as some of the higher levels.

So if your character is a lower level than most of the others, have your say anyway. Go for it :wink:
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PostAuthor: Vergilius » Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:40 pm

Daerthe wrote:Your PCs are as involved as you want to make them.


This is fairly dead-on. While I think many people do show up again and again as involved in quests, a lot of these people are those that are around again and again and make themselves in involved in such.

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PostAuthor: Titanium Dragon » Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:40 pm

tindertwiggy wrote:
Titanium Dragon wrote:One major isssue with the money thing is that some characters can just make obscene amounts of money easily.

Things like the M'chekian special forces spawns give about 2.5K per spawn, which is just rediculous and gives people who run through those an incredible amount of money. Looting houses is another easy way to make huge amounts of money. Heal potions are another way, and I presume crafting weapons yet another. There's numerous ways to make essentially infinite amounts of cash in short periods of time.


TD this sounds like it belongs in an email to staff@avlis.org....


Sent. Ask a high-level Nanshi army member for the specific locations (Vrosh or Green maybe), as I cannot find them reliably.

And yes Daerthe, very true.
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PostAuthor: WrathOG777 » Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:50 pm

Any player feeling left out that is Evil and/or chaotic, feel free to contact Tiras whenever I am on line. I shall see about making sure you get involved or at least informed about plots in avlis one way or another. I may not have my hands in all the cookie jars, but I will damn well try to make sure everyone feels welcome and usefull.

I go out of my way to make sure low lvl characters have a way to be effective in helping any group I am in. I have walked lvl 3 characters into LRC, the warrens, the underdark, and the minotaur caves while kepping them alive (mostly) and makeing sure they contribute. It can be done! Never feel useless just because your character is lower lvl.
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PostAuthor: Tahni » Mon Feb 09, 2004 9:25 pm

WrathOG777 wrote:Any player feeling left out that is Evil and/or chaotic, feel free to contact Tiras whenever I am on line. I shall see about making sure you get involved or at least informed about plots in avlis one way or another. I may not have my hands in all the cookie jars, but I will damn well try to make sure everyone feels welcome and usefull.

I go out of my way to make sure low lvl characters have a way to be effective in helping any group I am in. I have walked lvl 3 characters into LRC, the warrens, the underdark, and the minotaur caves while kepping them alive (mostly) and makeing sure they contribute. It can be done! Never feel useless just because your character is lower lvl.


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PostAuthor: keikobad » Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:12 pm

1. Regarding newbie-friendliness/same ol' people in plots/low- and high-level PCs not being a good party mix:

This place is as newbie-friendly as you make it. If you want to make it friendlier, stand around the town gates hailing people down and asking them if they want to get involved in something with you. I spent a couple of weeks badgering people into showing up for a newbie camp and advertising it on the taverns. Result: a group of 11 folks, most under lvl 10, showed up and we all went to the Wilds.

The level spread in the party was something like 3-19. My front-line meleers for the the bugbear elite cave (ouch, yes) were all under lvl 10 except for Jake. They were very glad magic vestment, greater magic weapon and darkfire weren't tampered with-- which certainly didn't stop Jake from biting major dust when he went 1on1 with a bugby. Guess what? It worked and we had a blast all the way to the Warrens where we got some good ol' rough DM-lovin'.

2. By levels 8-14 you can go almost anywhere on Avlis and you're still earning good XP from kills (relatively, for Avlis). Before then it's harder to get around, so while you might still be able to get good XP from all the cranked-down CR critters, you might not get to them. By level 15 (I am told, not there myself yet) your XP slows down to a trickle. Probably not the only factor in the spread, but I wouldn't see THAT as a sign that we're not newbie-friendly.

3. Regarding people hunting M'Chek Special Forces: we're coming for you.
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PostAuthor: Vergilius » Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:24 pm

keikobad wrote:By levels 8-14 you can go almost anywhere on Avlis and you're still earning good XP from kills (relatively, for Avlis). Before then it's harder to get around, so while you might still be able to get good XP from all the cranked-down CR critters, you might not get to them. By level 15 (I am told, not there myself yet) your XP slows down to a trickle.


I agree with the once you hit level 8. IN fact, I was out going places at level 6. Really, keep an invis potion and a haste potion handy in case you run across a higher level's spawn and you're set.

12 is really the break point, because its around there that the spawns start becoming harder to the point that if you lack AC equipment appropriate to your level, its MUCH more difficult to get around. On the other hand, you still can get around as long as you exercise appropriate caution, tactics and utilitiy potions effectively.

If exp has slowed down to a crawl, I've hardly noticed.

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PostAuthor: KinX » Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:27 pm

whenever i see a newb i try to make them cry, haven't succeeded yet though...
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PostAuthor: Vroshgrak » Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:30 pm

2.5k for 5 npcs, 500 gp each, doesntt seem unreasonably higih for me. *shrugs* I mean, at least they arent droppinng the boots of speed they are runnining around in. Anyway back on topic. I be happy to show you their locations, although you most likely know them. *

*i cant show you until i get nwn working*
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PostAuthor: KinX » Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:31 pm

Vergilius wrote:I agree with the once you hit level 8. IN fact, I was out going places at level 6. Really, keep an invis potion and a haste potion handy in case you run across a higher level's spawn and you're set.

12 is really the break point, because its around there that the spawns start becoming harder to the point that if you lack AC equipment appropriate to your level, its MUCH more difficult to get around. On the other hand, you still can get around as long as you exercise appropriate caution, tactics and utilitiy potions effectively.

If exp has slowed down to a crawl, I've hardly noticed.


well, the dual hammer wielding dwarves aren't around as much anymore. They were primarily the reason travel in the wilds was dangerous. The mercs in there now are a shadow of what they used to be.
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PostAuthor: Fifty » Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:39 pm

Titanium Dragon wrote:I bought a bastard sword +3 for 145K, and consider it a good deal. Its not that hard to raise so much cash.

I tried giving away +2 equipment though for a month and no one would take it. It kinda sucked. I was literally giving it away, and no one wanted it. Why the guilt? I didn't want to lug it around. That was just wierd.


Rubbish.

Kered doesn't steal and he doesn't craft. Once he could get through the crypts alone he was getting about 10K each time from that.

He got 50K from someone the other week, basically to do a bit of "research". Kered now has about 135K at level 9 and it is th emost he has ever had until about 2 weeks ago by 100K.

It is easy for thieves and crafters, but not for others. Now, seeing as Kered's character is to not steal or craft, you may say that is my decision. Fair enough. But do you want to play on a server where everyone is a tea leaf or a carpenter?

If you have +2 stuff to give away, I will take it.

I got a ring of +2 int, a +2 greatsword and an amulet of +2 armour last weekend. Until that Kered had one +2 item. He was level 8 last weekend. That is one single solitary +2 item at level 8.

Laen is level 7 and despite being a merchant has one +2 item - an amulet of natural armour. He has a +1 with special power weapon - for which he IC paid another magic item plus 50K for and I was happy to do so for IC reasons. He also has a couple of well and truly snazzy bows to sell, but they are far too uber for him to use anyway.
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PostAuthor: Fifty » Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:43 pm

keikobad wrote:
The level spread in the party was something like 3-19. My front-line meleers for the the bugbear elite cave (ouch, yes) were all under lvl 10 except for Jake. They were very glad magic vestment, greater magic weapon and darkfire weren't tampered with-- which certainly didn't stop Jake from biting major dust when he went 1on1 with a bugby. Guess what? It worked and we had a blast all the way to the Warrens where we got some good ol' rough DM-lovin'.


Bah. From now on I never log off. How typical that I logged off ta the warren entrance?
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PostAuthor: Fifty » Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:43 pm

It's a shame when you have to keep your precious plot a secret if you wish to have any continued influence on it, and the fact that it's done more and more is maybe something to think about.


Exactly what I am doing now, trying to keep under-level 11s only involved, except for one lvl 20.
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PostAuthor: Vergilius » Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:55 pm

KinX wrote:
well, the dual hammer wielding dwarves aren't around as much anymore. They were primarily the reason travel in the wilds was dangerous. The mercs in there now are a shadow of what they used to be.


True, I heard about those dual hammerers and considering what the flail dwarves do to me, I'd be hopeless against dual hammerers. The flailers still cost me much more than what their worth in either exp or gold drop.

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PostAuthor: Vergilius » Tue Feb 10, 2004 12:04 am

Fifty wrote:Kered doesn't steal and he doesn't craft. Once he could get through the crypts alone he was getting about 10K each time from that.

He got 50K from someone the other week, basically to do a bit of "research". Kered now has about 135K at level 9 and it is th emost he has ever had until about 2 weeks ago by 100K.

It is easy for thieves and crafters, but not for others. Now, seeing as Kered's character is to not steal or craft, you may say that is my decision. Fair enough. But do you want to play on a server where everyone is a tea leaf or a carpenter?


I think this concern is legit for low levels. I know I get adequate gold any time I visit a place whose creatures regularly drop gold. At lower levels, drops from monsters seems a bit low to keep them up to speed on expenses and especially to save up for future purchases.

And as someone stated earlier, we work 8 hours a day. To get home and then HAVE to work in recreation time is pretty dumb. People should be crafting because thats an RP route they want to pursue, not because some kind of engine constraint forces them down that route, whether it be xp (which is being addressed) or gold for savings.

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PostAuthor: Daerthe » Tue Feb 10, 2004 12:46 am

I craft to save gold. Most of what I make is stuff I use (potions/kits). I do woodcrafting to earn gold and sell most of what I am able to make because people wouldn't buy what I make anyway. Seriously, how many people need a masterwork large shield or club? And if they do, they certainly don't need 50 of them. My lvl 8 PC has 33k in gold on her right now and broke 15k for the first time ever last week. The only reason she even has that much was because she went adventuring with some rich high levels who told her to take all the loot found. I don't find much gold and I tithe most of what I do find or use it to pay for the room I am living in. So Kered in my eyes you are pretty rich.

Items are a whole nother story. In all my time here, I have found exactly one item anywhere that wasn't a scroll/gem/ammunition/gold and that was from a DM event. I don't have the funds or the items to trade with someone for better stuff or get anything at an auction/fair. Most of my equipment until very recently belonged to my order. Probably half of it still does. I've had to rely on the generosity of others to get every single one of the nice items I have.

As for working during my recreation time, well I don't. I come home run around for 30 or 40 minutes collecting ingredients and then craft large batches while working on my homework. This makes sure that I have the supplies I need when my homework is done and I'm ready to play. :P But seriously, it can get boring to craft if there is no one around to RP with at the same time. So I find something else to occupy my time while the script is grinding out how long it takes to run the batch. This tactic is becoming less feasible as I get to know people though. I wind up with three tell conversations going on about OOC stuff while my book slides off my lap. Might have to rethink this tactic soon. :lol:

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PostAuthor: Malathyre » Tue Feb 10, 2004 6:01 am

Crafting is something that my character does to keep herself supplied with the things she cannot afford (which is pretty much everything), to promote RP, and to gain xp, in that order of importance. I've gotten lots of good RP out of crafting or crafting efforts, and it can definitely be a major positive. However, it's not for everyone, but there is usually enough else to do, anyway. If it seemed like work, I would stop doing it, for sure.

Daerthe wrote:So I find something else to occupy my time while the script is grinding out how long it takes to run the batch. This tactic is becoming less feasible as I get to know people though. I wind up with three tell conversations going on about OOC stuff while my book slides off my lap. Might have to rethink this tactic soon. :lol:


NO :!: I hereby ban you from rethinking this tactic, ever! :wink: When else would I get to bug you? :lol:
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