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Avlis policy on: Detecting Changelings

Rules and Guidelines

Moderator: Dungeon Masters

PostAuthor: dougnoel » Sat Mar 26, 2005 2:14 pm

Godron wrote:Are the checks shown in the message window ?

If not, could you state which of the texts shown are OOC and IC for those of us who do not know how the changeling mechanics work. By this I mean the actual texts.

The OOC text is "<player name> uses Changeling Special Ability" and is blue and purple. The IC text is yellow.

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PostAuthor: Arnimane » Sat Mar 26, 2005 5:46 pm

Maybe its a bit obvious, but for the sake of asking....


If your character has spent some time in and around changelings. That would nudge the ic knowledge a bit towards being able to recognize another changeling wouldn't it?
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PostAuthor: Eef » Sat Mar 26, 2005 8:20 pm

It might be more natural for the character to suspect it is a changeling when he sees someone changing shape in front of him, but unless you get the yellow text message you have no IC proof whatsoever. And in the case of purging or memorizing forms, you don't see anything at all if you get only the purple message.

Edit:

Even being a changeling does not make it any easier to identify other changelings.
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PostAuthor: Arnimane » Sat Mar 26, 2005 8:52 pm

Thanks for the prompt answer.

Since I cant tell for sure can I go ahead and cut the hands off anyone who purposely runs up and grabs me then? :lol:
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PostAuthor: Veilan » Wed Jun 29, 2005 9:53 pm

Uh, question from a njub.

Does changing form as the changeling ability have any somatic or vocal components? So is there an actual chance to confuse it with a polymorph: self spell (DC 14 to identify with spellcraft)?

Now of course, someone could memorize a polymorph: self as still and silent spell, but I do suppose that is not as likely.

My point being, if I roll 14 or 15 on spellcraft, I should know the guy did not cast a polymorph: self spell, and if I am a spellcasting class with access to arcane magic, I should automatically know that no attempt at casting a spell somatic- or vocally was made.

I hope you are not as confuzzled as I am now... but can someone answer this? :shock:
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PostAuthor: Vichan Lyonsen » Wed Jun 29, 2005 10:26 pm

Eef wrote:It might be more natural for the character to suspect it is a changeling when he sees someone changing shape in front of him, but unless you get the yellow text message you have no IC proof whatsoever. And in the case of purging or memorizing forms, you don't see anything at all if you get only the purple message.

Edit:

Even being a changeling does not make it any easier to identify other changelings.


I think people are getting hung up on this "proof" thing....who gives a tinkers darn about proof...its not like you can hand over your spellcraft check in a court of law....

so yes you will not be 100% certain they are a changeling...however if someone changes in front of you, it would seem to me to be perfectly IC for you to claim.. .he/she/it is a changeling/druid/wizard/shifter/demon (take your pick) After all the idjit shifted right in front of you...

Frankly I'm surprised people havent been running around claiming.. "he's a demon..I saw him shift form just like a demon" :lol: Playing your role doesnt hinge on your need for fact....we all go through life missing many facts, and claiming things as absolute fact that are not....

...no need to dwell on if you know for certain...paint the person with whatever brush you please and stick with it all so long as its IC...seems to me it would be ok.
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PostAuthor: dougnoel » Wed Jul 27, 2005 4:49 pm

Arnimane wrote:Since I cant tell for sure can I go ahead and cut the hands off anyone who purposely runs up and grabs me then? :lol:

You can be as ICly paranoid as you want to be.

Veilan wrote:Does changing form as the changeling ability have any somatic or vocal components?

No. It's not a spell-like ability. It's a supernatural ability.

Veilan wrote:So is there an actual chance to confuse it with a polymorph: self spell (DC 14 to identify with spellcraft)?

Yes.

Veilan wrote:Now of course, someone could memorize a polymorph: self as still and silent spell, but I do suppose that is not as likely.

My point being, if I roll 14 or 15 on spellcraft, I should know the guy did not cast a polymorph: self spell,

There are a couple of problems with your assumption.
1.) You cannot force your skill checks upon other players. So, you are not allowed to make a spellcraft check to identify any spell/power usage that another player makes. That's why we hardcoded the spellcraft check. You either make the check and know what they did, or you fail the check and aren't sure. The reason for this ruling is to prevent premanent IC damage of accusing someone of being a changeling and to prevent he said/she said arguments that are unresolvable.

2.) When you make a spellcraft roll, you are making an attempt to identify a spell/power. Failure indicates you do not know what the power was. Spellcraft checks cannot be used as process of elimination. So you cannot roll a DC 19 check (15 + spell level, which is 4 in this case) to see if it's polymorph spell and get a false positive. The check DC is based on identifying the spell/power that is being used, not on what you *think* is being used.

Veilan wrote:and if I am a spellcasting class with access to arcane magic, I should automatically know that no attempt at casting a spell somatic- or vocally was made.

FYI, a silent/stilled spell would be two levels higher, and thus would have a DC 21 (15 + spell level) to identify. In this case however, you are looking for proof of what the spell isn't. The game mechanics do not work this way.

Veilan wrote:I hope you are not as confuzzled as I am now... but can someone answer this? :shock:

Hopefully I've answered your questions. It boils down to what I said in the first post. Unless you make the spellcraft check and get a message from the game, your character fails to recognize the power that the changeling used.

Vichan Lyonsen wrote:I think people are getting hung up on this "proof" thing....who gives a tinkers darn about proof...its not like you can hand over your spellcraft check in a court of law....

so yes you will not be 100% certain they are a changeling...however if someone changes in front of you, it would seem to me to be perfectly IC for you to claim.. .he/she/it is a changeling/druid/wizard/shifter/demon (take your pick) After all the idjit shifted right in front of you...

Frankly I'm surprised people havent been running around claiming.. "he's a demon..I saw him shift form just like a demon" :lol: Playing your role doesnt hinge on your need for fact....we all go through life missing many facts, and claiming things as absolute fact that are not....

...no need to dwell on if you know for certain...paint the person with whatever brush you please and stick with it all so long as its IC...seems to me it would be ok.

This rule is here to enhance OOC communication of an IC concept. It isn't here to limit IC interaction. Changelings are a very touchy subject. The rules are easily abused from both sides of the coin. As long as you follow the common sense rule, there shouldn't be any problems.

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PostAuthor: Defender » Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:12 pm

The funny thing is that I was just about to create a post about this exact same subject. Now I dont have to..

The rule is right here in front of everyone.

OBSERVE!!

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PostAuthor: GHENGIZ.KHAN » Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:55 am

bump
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PostAuthor: chilingsworth » Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:23 pm

Arnimane wrote:Maybe its a bit obvious, but for the sake of asking....


If your character has spent some time in and around changelings. That would nudge the ic knowledge a bit towards being able to recognize another changeling wouldn't it?



Errr.... in changlings? well... not just yet, no.
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Re: Detecting Changelings

PostAuthor: terror2001 » Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:21 pm

dougnoel wrote:When a changeling changes form, everyone in the immediate vicinity gets to make a spellcraft check (DC 16). This check is made automatically by the engine. If they succeed, they get a message indicating that the user of the power may be a changeling. If they fail, they get no message.



Not sure if this was answered someplace else or not, if so post me a link please.
What is the radius of "in the immediate vicinity"?
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PostAuthor: itsabughunt » Fri Apr 14, 2006 3:29 am

CPU wrote:Another thing to take into consideration is the player view of NWN and Avlis. We, as players, get this great overhead view that can swing around 360 degree's, overhead to floor level. You see all this stuff, what happenes behind you, all sorts of things that your character can't. Even when it's dark outside, you still see quite alot and still from every conceivable angle.

The point here is that if you didn't have these sorts of advantages that you don't have in real life, you're character may not notice these sorts of things all the time. and if they do, would they understand exactly what they saw, anyway?


Those are some important observations CPU. And this sure does apply to WAY more than just changelings. I think many of us get too comfortable with having a bird's-eye view from 40 feet up and 20 feet behind. Its like a continuous out-of-body experience.
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PostAuthor: weeno » Fri Apr 14, 2006 5:20 am

this happened not that long ago when a changling entered mikona and stole some stuff from a PC, the guard saw him change and im sure, level 10, she didnt IC know he was a changling, even when he changed and ran around telling everyone of a Changling thief...im glad this is getting adressed!

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PostAuthor: dougnoel » Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:46 pm

terror2001 wrote:
dougnoel wrote:When a changeling changes form, everyone in the immediate vicinity gets to make a spellcraft check (DC 16). This check is made automatically by the engine. If they succeed, they get a message indicating that the user of the power may be a changeling. If they fail, they get no message.



Not sure if this was answered someplace else or not, if so post me a link please.
What is the radius of "in the immediate vicinity"?

It's been a while, so I don't remember, but I think it's set to 6 feet.

weeno wrote:this happened not that long ago when a changling entered mikona and stole some stuff from a PC, the guard saw him change and im sure, level 10, she didnt IC know he was a changling, even when he changed and ran around telling everyone of a Changling thief...im glad this is getting adressed!

Eh? I posted these rules a year and a half ago...

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