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Avlis policy on: "Visible" Spell Effects (old)

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Moderator: Dungeon Masters

PostAuthor: Glocknal » Wed Jun 04, 2003 3:00 pm

Emprod wrote:I see no reason for you to go after mages. Anyone can slap a helmet on and say "you don't know me , my name is Bob".

Obviously, if a mage has a stoneskin or whatnot on, they still retain shape, and if they want to be anonymous, they should try a little harder than that, I agree.

But it's just as easy for anyone else to go anonymous too.

**

To add to the point of the thread, visible spell effects like stoneskin and shadowshield don't alter shape, so if you're actually making an honest attempt to be unrecognizable, take it a step further and change other outward appearances as well. It'll give the nitpickers less to work with.



I agree with you here, simply puting on a different helmet doestn mean you cannot be identified. If you want to to truly disguise your identity, a careful and delierbrate thought should be put into it. Not just slapping a couple minor cosmetic changes down.
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PostAuthor: SpeelSpel » Wed Jun 04, 2003 3:19 pm

Agreed, people should make an effort to disguise themselves!

I often change equipment, especially before a 'less legal' action. I think the disguise consists of several elements:
- changing equipment, especially helm
- invis ofcourse
- covering effects (stoneskin, barkskin, shadowshield)

If you're down, your unconcious, you don't see or hear anything

If you're holding a unique staff in your hand, your stupid :)
Same (lesser extent) goes for stuff that is very rare (not to many people with greater belts for example)

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PostAuthor: eNTrOpY » Wed Jun 04, 2003 4:09 pm

Don't hijack the thread!

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PostAuthor: eNTrOpY » Wed Jun 04, 2003 4:31 pm

There are two choices: we can make it so some spell effects on people count as visible and some aren't visible or we can make it so no spell effects on people are visible.

The reason I posted this rule is that I'm sick and tired of people using stealth/invis to stay hidden turning 180 degrees the moment they see someone with the "floaty eyes" of true seeing/see invis.

I'm sick and tired of seeing clerics deciding not to cast spells at an enemy because they see that the enemy has "spell resistance" on him/her.

I'm sick and tired of people saying "whats that mist surrounding you?" when i've got premonition cast on me. WTF, I can see a few seconds into the future so i can avoid blows and suddenly you see a mist. Did anyone see that when reading the spell discription?


So here are the choices:
1) If you want to know if a certain spell effect is visible, post the spell here and I'll make a decision

or

2) Continue arguing and I say no spell effects on characters are visible

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PostAuthor: ashzz » Wed Jun 04, 2003 4:46 pm

entropy, while I agree with how you feel, do you really think telling the players you cant see spell resistance on a cleric will make him go from, oh dont waste a fireball cause it wont hurt the cleric to oh lets lob a few because IC i cant see that the cleric has spell reistance on?

I really want to be with you here man, but it doesnt make any sense, and you KNOW people will see it anyway and metagame it...its totally unavoidable, only the really good roleplayers will stick to the guidelines, and theyll get screwed by it while everyone else metagames it.

ie thief number one, good roleplayer..sneaks up on me even though i have true seeing on, but he cant see that, i catch him thieving, he is toast.

thief number two, ooc sees it, so metagames and doesnt pickpocket from me..hes fine...

this is way beyond KISS and like i said, I just cannot see how you can enforce it or hope to get this nailed down in any way shape or form.
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PostAuthor: Jorio Alerian » Wed Jun 04, 2003 4:48 pm

eNTrOpY wrote:There are two choices: we can make it so some spell effects on people count as visible and some aren't visible or we can make it so no spell effects on people are visible.

The reason I posted this rule is that I'm sick and tired of people using stealth/invis to stay hidden turning 180 degrees the moment they see someone with the "floaty eyes" of true seeing/see invis.

I'm sick and tired of seeing clerics deciding not to cast spells at an enemy because they see that the enemy has "spell resistance" on him/her.

I'm sick and tired of people saying "whats that mist surrounding you?" when i've got premonition cast on me. WTF, I can see a few seconds into the future so i can avoid blows and suddenly you see a mist. Did anyone see that when reading the spell discription?


So here are the choices:
1) If you want to know if a certain spell effect is visible, post the spell here and I'll make a decision

or

2) Continue arguing and I say no spell effects on characters are visible


Bravo! I agree wholeheartedly.

Unless it affects your physical appearance (Stoneskin, barkskin, etc...), I say leave the spells unvisible.
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PostAuthor: Korrigan » Wed Jun 04, 2003 4:54 pm

I have to agree with Misty here ...

It's MUCH easier and less work for you too to admit NWN is NOT Pen and Paper and that the spell effects you see on the screen ARE VISIBLE.

There is a difference between using the effects that you can see (IC) and using the "eye" on a char (OOC) to discover he uses death ward and other invisible spells.

My opinion would therefore be "deal with it NWN way" ...

Just my 2 cents though.
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test

PostAuthor: Arakian » Fri Jun 06, 2003 5:36 pm

I agree with the person that said you should'nt see the effects of a spell like premnotion. But also it's very hard to RP like you don't see it, and if your character ends up in the twilight zone where he can either cast a spell or not then your subcountiosness will end up counting in the effects you see that are not supposed to be there.

The easiest way is just to remove the visual effects of spells that you shouldnt see. There are two reasons why this _Should_ be done:

-It laggs
-Prevents abuse of non-IC-visible "special effects".

What frustrates me is that it looks fucking rediculous when your cleric has a green circle, and your mage run's around with floating eyes over his head and around him.

The spells that should be seen are only Transmutation spells and Illusion spells. The retarded floating eyes with purple colors and all sorts of freeking sounds piss me off. Just remove it as a whole and we'll all be happy. The only way a person should know what spells an opponent has activated is if he was there to hear the words of magic and recognized them with Spellcraft.
I can emphizize enough how stupid this really is, the way powerword kill produce a disk of red shit with some chains hanging from it.
It's even better if he just said the words and the target died, easy as that!

(edit: can't you just script the flashy shit effects into the abyss?)

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Re: test

PostAuthor: Falkin » Fri Jun 06, 2003 5:41 pm

Arakian wrote:I agree with the person that said you should'nt see the effects of a spell like premnotion. But also it's very hard to RP like you don't see it, and if your character ends up in the twilight zone where he can either cast a spell or not then your subcountiosness will end up counting in the effects you see that are not supposed to be there.

The easiest way is just to remove the visual effects of spells that you shouldnt see. There are two reasons why this _Should_ be done:

-It laggs
-Prevents abuse of non-IC-visible "special effects".

What frustrates me is that it looks fucking rediculous when your cleric has a green circle, and your mage run's around with floating eyes over his head and around him.

The spells that should be seen are only Transmutation spells and Illusion spells. The retarded floating eyes with purple colors and all sorts of freeking sounds piss me off. Just remove it as a whole and we'll all be happy. The only way a person should know what spells an opponent has activated is if he was there to hear the words of magic and recognized them with Spellcraft.
I can emphizize enough how stupid this really is, the way powerword kill produce a disk of red shit with some chains hanging from it.
It's even better if he just said the words and the target died, easy as that!(edit: can't you just script the flashy shit effects into the abyss?)


Gha! Well... In response to all that... First off, though to some degree the visual effects will cause connection lag(ie, the server telling your computer they're there), the primary "lag" created is local, ie not connection, but your computer going "AH! TOO MUCH INFO TO RENDER!!!"

Second, this is not PnP, and since the game was designed to be playable and enjoyable by people who have no PnP experiecne, or previous knowledge of the system's inner workings, those of us with said experience/exposure to the game will just have to deal with it... unless someone is motivated enough to find a way to script the visual effects out but leave the game mechanics of them in... Until then, oh well... GAME ON!

(edit: can't speak for the builders, but I'm willing to bet they already are scripted in!)
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PostAuthor: Pharik » Fri Jun 06, 2003 5:49 pm

I agree with Arakian, and I think this is possible. I have recently played a module that didnt have visuals *on*.

Personally whenever I see an over-the-top buffed up mage I just think PvPer or Pansy. Everyone going around with constant TS up also does my head in. Kari refuses to memorise the darn spell and if she has been stolen from?..*shrugs*..well ignorance is bliss.

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PostAuthor: PigLickJF » Fri Jun 06, 2003 11:22 pm

I'm a completel novice scripter, but I have played with the spell scripts a bit, and it should be completely possible to remove these effects on a spell-by-spell basis, shouldn't it? Just remove the part of the script that calls the visual effect, leaving everything else intact. The amount of time and effort it would take of course depends on the number of spells on the list that need to be modified, but it really shouldn't be a huge job for the few major spells discussed in this thread (true seeing, premonition, etc).

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PostAuthor: The Sveg » Sat Jun 07, 2003 7:57 am

Hey, this sounds promising.
If this could happen, most problems would be off.
Of course, one could still be aware OOCly for the spell effects one has on him/her through the right click-examine, but there would be nothing visible.
*looks at scripters*
what do you say?
"When is this project to start?

I, uh, accidentally did not see that it had not started yet, so tonight i killed all the elysian merchants on the list, and most of the wilderness ones."


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PostAuthor: ashzz » Sat Jun 07, 2003 8:17 am

The other point is, I myself like the visual effects. This may sound gay, but I think spell resistance for clerics is the coolest looking spell effect in the game.

If you can rightclick and still see what a person has on them, then removing the effects so they cant be seen aside from that will do 1 thing...take away some of my fun of playing this game because I like to enjoy the graphics too.

and to be honest, I could care less if its IC or not. I dont abuse it, ultravision looks the same as true seeing to me, and I dont think ive ever once seen someone all buffed up and thats changed my view on how to approach them IC.

this is aweful similar to jads floaty PC name debate, you take the floaty name away, a right click still lets yu see the characters name, so what have yu really accomplished?
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PostAuthor: The Sveg » Sat Jun 07, 2003 8:28 am

I believe many people do not use the right-click-examine function so often. Many times, it takes a while to appear and it has many other problems, like covering the most part of the screen and with a lot of data to read. And this makes even more sense in situations where speed is needed.

Visible spell effects tell a lot to a trained eye and even subconciously affect ones decisions OOCly.

I definitely agree with you on the graphics effects. My favorite is the Premonition really. Damn intimidating! On my first days I was in awe of these guys that were walking around in this thing!

But I believe the gain would be greater if we lost these effects.
"When is this project to start?

I, uh, accidentally did not see that it had not started yet, so tonight i killed all the elysian merchants on the list, and most of the wilderness ones."


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PostAuthor: PigLickJF » Sat Jun 07, 2003 8:57 am

I just did a bit more testing, and you can indeed turn off visible spell effects on a spell-by-spell basis by altering the spell's script. (Of course, nearly anyone who's done any scripting at all could probably have already told you that anyway...). If the list was kept short enough, it really wouldn't even be that big of a job, either. I am almost completely incompetent when it comes to scripting, and it only took me about 10-15 minutes of messing around to strip True Seeing of it's visible effect. I'm sure the extremely skilled scripters behind Avlis could do it in no time flat. On the other hand, I realize they are all very busy, and even a seemingly small project like this could be too much of a draw of resources. This is also all assuming that Orleron would want to make this change, anyway. He may agree with the sentiment that others have expressed that it should be just left as-is.

Personally, I'm all for it, especially for certain spells, such as any divination or abjuration spells. Divination especially. Think about it, no one knows the power of knowledge better than a diviner. Any diviner who develops a spell that announces to the world it is being used would be laughed out of his profession so quickly he wouldn't have been able to see it coming with a premonition spell ;) Similar argument holds for abjuration...if your protection spell announces to the world exactly what you're being protected from, it's going to make it a lot easier for people to simply bypass it...what decent abjurer would develop a spell like that?

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PostAuthor: Arakian » Sat Jun 07, 2003 5:23 pm

Yes, i had an idea it would be as easy as piglick says.
Spells that are not supposed to be seen are not supposed to be seen, and as he says to the comment about "not beeing affected IC by the spells one has activated". It is seen and affects your judgement as he says.

What is possible even though we remove this, is to right click and examin. But at least then, you openly OOC and metagame and you know so yourself. As for other players who don't want to metagame, they will not check to see and it's not in their screen to affect their judgement.

Besides that, i love Spell resistance for clerics too, and as a matter of fact we could remove every spell-graphic besides that one :) (j/k)
But isn't it alot cooler, when a mage can walk around all buffed up without the stupid fucking effects that blur his robe tottaly out, or make him seem totaly retarded? This is from my point of view, but as pig says.

It's not supposed to be seen.
It affects your IC reactions
It laggs (abit on bad computers)

And the worst part is that most of the effects don't look very cool.
The spells that need to be altered, are all spelleffects besides Illusion and Transformation schools. Simple as that, because every other spell SHOULDNT be seen.
As i said, isn't it cooler if a mage speaks some words and the target falls dead? then the powerword followed by a stupid fucking disk of red shit?

And isnt it cooler, if a mage tries to attack another mage with magic missiles. And it just rubbes off on his Globe of Inv. Because it WAS invisible, since there is another script dealing with Spell vs Spellprotection, the Globe of Inv will suddenly appear as a wall when struck by magic missiles. Something that is totaly breathtaking and awsome.
It will look something like attacking a spellmantle except you don't stand on that retarded looking blue star that is benith your feet.

But it's not like every spelleffect is removed, illusion spells, like wierd and Phantasmal Killer. Also transmutation spells, like Stoneskin and barkskin(doh).

This way, mages could walk around with protections without telling the entire fucking world!

(edit: oh, and no fear. Shadowshield is an illusion spell, so you will look totaly fucking cool even if this goes trough)

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PostAuthor: JollyOrc » Sat Jun 07, 2003 5:58 pm

I love the idea.

I've become annoyed by all these layers of spells on people long ago. For Janur's portraits, I'm often zooming around the screen, trying to find the perfect angle.

Now, every so often, someone with one of the various aura's protections etc. steps into view, and BLAM lens flare ahead.

Also: How do the mages stand all these fx around them ?

It would irritate me immensively to have dancing lights in my face the whole day...
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PostAuthor: ashzz » Tue Jun 10, 2003 7:11 am

bah! shame on yu all..it looks super cool, and if the spell resistance isnt visible how the heck is Misty supposed to play with the runes?!
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PostAuthor: JollyOrc » Tue Jun 10, 2003 7:13 am

well, just leave stoneskin on.

At least for ogres

*goes hunting stoney*
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PostAuthor: jadeia » Tue Jun 10, 2003 7:13 am

I like the fx. Why I became a mage in all honestly, as before NWN I'd NEVER played a mage. Always a ranger, but Rangers are screwed in NWN.
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PostAuthor: Furin » Tue Jun 10, 2003 5:59 pm

I would LOVE for this to happen.

One of the greatest things about PnP is that you never can tell whether the dude you're messing with is a pipsqueak or some badass who's about to light you up.
Sure, we'd still have that whole "Examine" issue, but if, like many of us, you just flat-out never look at it you'd be able to gleefully walk the dizzying line of pounding an invis potion, going into stealth mode and sneaking up on either 1). a completely useless, scrawny newbie with no buffs who's totally unaware of you, or 2). a completely fearless, scrappy old-timer who's just *dripping* with magical protections and enhancements and has been watching you approach the whole time.

It's fun to judge people by what they do rather than by what you can read.

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PostAuthor: Aloro » Tue Jun 10, 2003 6:36 pm

I'm not speaking on behalf of Orleron's vision here, nor the other scripters and programmers on the Team, but I personally have a lot of other things to do with my time, and this doesn't even rank in the top 500. I do not plan to remove the visual effects from spells, because it is simply not a priority compared to the other things I do for Avlis.

Yeah, it'd be nice, I guess. Not important enough though.

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PostAuthor: WrathOG777 » Tue Jun 10, 2003 6:50 pm

Only spell animation that realy pisses me off is protection from elements seris. I can barely see my charater through that crap. It is realy annoying. It angers me soo bad I sometimes refuse to use it. Would rather eat the damn fireballs that look at that crap.

err, oh sorry, wrong board, I will go back to R&R now...
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PostAuthor: Guest » Tue Jun 10, 2003 8:22 pm

Ok, I realize this is a *major* longshot, but what if an Avlis player volunteered to do the scripting work to remove them? (again, let me reiterate: *very* unlikely, I realize that. Never hurts to ask though ;))

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PostAuthor: WrathOG777 » Tue Jun 10, 2003 9:13 pm

Err, actualy... If you are realy seriously talking about volunteer to recode all the spells for the avlis team, that is not all that unlikely. I suggest http://www.avlis.org/portal.php?getpage=jointeam , if you want to help out codeing.
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